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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 08:08 AM   #61
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Note that I specifically said "material."
Guns and money don't count as "material"?* Anyway, it was much more than mere moral support, I believe.

Quote:
Not sure how much and what was actually given to the local warlords and nutballs.* Probably no way to ever really know.
True.
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 09:06 AM   #62
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Re: Red State Views

Delayed reaction, but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
According to the rules relating to political disagreements on the internet it is now appropriate to post the following

That t-shirt speaks to me. I was a hippie child growing up, and it was indeed the results of the 2000 election that got me off my butt to finally figure out how to vote absentee in 2004. Yup, darn right I'll vote now. (Though I do expect to be disappointed eventually, whoever wins.)
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 09:25 AM   #63
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Re: Red State Views

Hmmm

Since I was born a democrat - I vote dem. If someone else has a good idea - let him convince a democrat and I'll vote for the democrat. The republican branch of the family pretty much is the same - except for my sister who 'claims' to be independant - and then votes republican.

She even thinks the Pat's are a good football team.

Go figure.

heh heh heh heh heh heh
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 09:58 AM   #64
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpp
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Note that I specifically said "material."
Guns and money don't count as "material"? Anyway, it was much more than mere moral support, I believe.

Quote:
Not sure how much and what was actually given to the local warlords and nutballs. Probably no way to ever really know.
True.
this is a perfect example of how US media choose to not significantly support the extent of US activities abroad.

In fact, the US spend a lot of money to destabilize the left-leaning regime in Afghanisitan. It was this destabilization that suckered the Russians into involvement. This was part of the plan for the "global war on Commumism." The US continued to prop up tin-pot generals in Pakistan, and funneled huge amounts of weapons and support using the Pakistani military as conduit. This was done, not out of any concern whatsoever for Afghanistan (notice how quickly all help there disappeared once the Russians left) but as a way to engage the Russians by proxy and give them a black eye. But at what cost in innocent lives?

This kind of activity has nothing to do with red or blue states. Both democratic and republican administrations have engaged in this kind of meddling.
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 09:59 AM   #65
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemick2
Hmmm

Since I was born a democrat - I vote dem. If someone else has a good idea - let him convince a democrat and I'll vote for the democrat. The republican branch of the family pretty much is the same - except for my sister who 'claims' to be independant - and then votes republican.

She even thinks the Pat's are a good football team.

Go figure.

heh heh heh heh heh heh
Yup and this is why you will always have a President in power with some support. Some will support their party no matter what. BTW, the Pat's are a good football team. They certainly have a winner with their quarterback.*
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 10:12 AM   #66
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Re: Red State Views

While we are on the subject, any of you folks heard of Major General Smedly Butler (1888-1940), described by Douglas MacArthur as 'one of the really great generals in American history' and two-time winner of the Medal of Honor?

He wrote a book after he retired entitled "War as Racket" which basically laid out his opposition to offensive wars and that in the future he would defend his country from attack but would never again be a "racketeer for capitalism." In 1933, he wrote

"There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its 'finger-men' to point out the enemies, its 'muscle-men' to destroy enemies, its 'brain men' to plan war preparations and a 'Big Boss' Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man, to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent 33 years and 4 mounths in active military service as a memeber of this country's most agile military force. the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major General. And during that period, I spend most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it.

I helped make Honduras 'right' for American fruit companies in 1903. I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothres in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China, I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 10:47 AM   #67
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Re: Red State Views

December 7, 1941

Sounds like Smedly held a popular American view - until we got an additude adjustment.

heh heh heh heh
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 10:58 AM   #68
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemick2
December 7, 1941

Sounds like Smedly held a popular American view - until we got an additude adjustment.

heh heh heh heh
Smedly was the first to say he would fight to defend America if attacked.
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 11:16 AM   #69
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
While we are on the subject, any of you folks heard of Major General Smedly Butler (1888-1940), described by Douglas MacArthur as 'one of the really great generals in American history' and two-time winner of the Medal of Honor?

He wrote a book after he retired entitled "War as Racket" which basically laid out his opposition to offensive wars and that in the future he would defend his country from attack but would never again be a "racketeer for capitalism."* In 1933, he wrote

"There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to.* It has its 'finger-men' to point out the enemies, its 'muscle-men' to destroy enemies, its 'brain men' to plan war preparations and a 'Big Boss' Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man, to adopt such a comparison.* Truthfulness compels me to.* I spent 33 years and 4 mounths in active military service as a memeber of this country's most agile military force. the Marine Corps.* I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major General.* And during that period, I spend most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers.* In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time.* Now I am sure of it.

I helped make Honduras 'right' for American fruit companies in 1903.* I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914.* I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in.* I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street.* The record of racketeering is long.* I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothres in 1909-1912.* I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916.* In China, I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.*

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket.* Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints.* The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts.* I operated on three continents."
Thank you, bosco, for bringing up Smedley D. Butler. But, you left out the best part.

In 1934, Gen. Butler went to Congress to report he'd been approached by a group representing fascist leaning corporatists who were plotting to overthrow the Roosevelt administration in a military coup.

Before you neocons on this board spit up your koolaid, go look it up for yourselves.

How much easier it is today, when the fascist/republicans can just rig elections. (go to Rolling Stone online and read Bobby Kennedy Jr's very detailed story on the theft of the 2004 election.

So, folks, nothing's really new. The military-industrial complex is always there, plotting to erode our liberties. They're just making more headway these days.
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 11:28 AM   #70
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphabet soup
Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
While we are on the subject, any of you folks heard of Major General Smedly Butler (1888-1940), described by Douglas MacArthur as 'one of the really great generals in American history' and two-time winner of the Medal of Honor?

He wrote a book after he retired entitled "War as Racket" which basically laid out his opposition to offensive wars and that in the future he would defend his country from attack but would never again be a "racketeer for capitalism." In 1933, he wrote

"There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its 'finger-men' to point out the enemies, its 'muscle-men' to destroy enemies, its 'brain men' to plan war preparations and a 'Big Boss' Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man, to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent 33 years and 4 mounths in active military service as a memeber of this country's most agile military force. the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major General. And during that period, I spend most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it.

I helped make Honduras 'right' for American fruit companies in 1903. I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothres in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China, I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."
Thank you, bosco, for bringing up Smedley D. Butler. But, you left out the best part.

In 1934, Gen. Butler went to Congress to report he'd been approached by a group representing fascist leaning corporatists who were plotting to overthrow the Roosevelt administration in a military coup.

Before you neocons on this board spit up your koolaid, go look it up for yourselves.

How much easier it is today, when the fascist/republicans can just rig elections. (go to Rolling Stone online and read Bobby Kennedy Jr's very detailed story on the theft of the 2004 election.

So, folks, nothing's really new. The military-industrial complex is always there, plotting to erode our liberties. They're just making more headway these days.
Not that I don't doubt that Republicans would steal an election, but so would the Democrats if they could.
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 11:37 AM   #71
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
The big difference between Vietnam and Iraq is Iraq is not supported by Russia, North Vietnam was. The Vietnamese also were hiding in Cambodia, a place we didn't want to go. So we did secret incursions there, but quickly went back to Vietnam. The Iraq insurgents are supported by criminals and terrorists, not a major world power.
Hmmm, somehow I can't help but think about the Afghan mess. The Soviets spent, what?, 10 years throwing their considerable military against a bunch of tinpot warlords who I don't believe got material support from anyone. They eventually left in defeat. The place ended up in anarchy until we stuck our snouts in. Reminds me of Viet Nam an awful lot. And I feel really sorry for whoever comes in after us in Iraq to try to clean up the mess...
Brewer, if you ever get a chance, read the book Charlie Wilson's War. It's a true story about how congressman Charlie Wilson basically gave the Mujahadeen enough money and weapons to establish an enormous army. The amount of arms we sent them is simply amazing. We ARE the reason they beat the soviets, without the help of the CIA the tribesmen were getting cut down by the soviets by the thousands.

Also don't forget that the Afghans were getting BILLIONS of $$$ from the Saudi royal family. Much of it organized by whats his name?



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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 11:40 AM   #72
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickj
Not that I don't doubt that Republicans would steal an election, but so would the Democrats if they could.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphabet soup
So, folks, nothing's really new. The military-industrial complex is always there, plotting to erode our liberties. They're just making more headway these days.
I don't think we can just point in one direction (Republics vs Democrats or the "military-industrial complex") to find someone looking to manipulate and steal our elections and our rights. Whenever there is something worth stealing there will be someone looking to grab it.
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 11:40 AM   #73
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphabet soup
Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco

(go to Rolling Stone online and read Bobby Kennedy Jr's very detailed story on the theft of the 2004 election.
Hmmmm, based on the author and the publisher I'm sure the article is very balanced.
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 01:42 PM   #74
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Re: Red State Views

Again, it's not about Democrats or Republicans. It's about our "corporate masters" controlling governments for their interets rather than those of the public. Yes, I realize we all own stock in companies.

Clinton was as bad or worse as any in terms of being a corporate lackey. In fact, the Demos probably did steal the 1960 election (courtesy of lots of dead Cook county voters).

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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 02:22 PM   #75
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
Clinton was as bad or worse as any in terms of being a corporate lackey. In fact, the Demos probably did steal the 1960 election (courtesy of lots of dead Cook county voters).
Hey, I was born and raised on da south side. Dey weren't "dead" voters, dey were legitimate ghosts. And every one of em was registered.
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 05:17 PM   #76
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMcDonald


Yea...and they are usually living in a trailer in a red state...



Ah, the left's other favorite tactic. When all else fails, just characterize conservatives as uneducated morons.
Just to be clear, a lot of folks who vote republican, and the current republican administration...are NOT conservatives. They're people who get excited about one of the hot button planks the republican party has adopted, such as religion, abortion, guns, etc.

None of those are traditional conservative political planks.

Traditional conservatives are for smaller government, support of business, limited social programs, lower taxes, keeping our countries nose out of other countries businesses, strong defense, strict interpretation and support of the constitution and the bill of rights, etc.

A few of these so-called "red state" voters think they're electing the pope, not a president.

As a long time conservative voter, I see very little of what I want to vote for in this president or the current incarnation of the republican party. These guys are not "conservative" at all and their voters arent either. They're voting for a religious pro gun anti abortion anti homosexual that says "nucular", just like they do.
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 05:31 PM   #77
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMcDonald


Yea...and they are usually living in a trailer in a red state...



Ah, the left's other favorite tactic. When all else fails, just characterize conservatives as uneducated morons.
Just to be clear, a lot of folks who vote republican, and the current republican administration...are NOT conservatives. They're people who get excited about one of the hot button planks the republican party has adopted, such as religion, abortion, guns, etc.

None of those are traditional conservative political planks.

Traditional conservatives are for smaller government, support of business, limited social programs, lower taxes, keeping our countries nose out of other countries businesses, strong defense, strict interpretation and support of the constitution and the bill of rights, etc.

A few of these so-called "red state" voters think they're electing the pope, not a president.

As a long time conservative voter, I see very little of what I want to vote for in this president or the current incarnation of the republican party. These guys are not "conservative" at all and their voters arent either. They're voting for a religious pro gun anti abortion anti homosexual that says "nucular", just like they do.


Pretty good characterization, I laughed out loud.

Of course, you can say the same thing about how the core of the democratic party is not made up of "progressive" "liberals," but racist, politically correct, fascist-loving communists.

As I've said before, both parties suck
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 05:33 PM   #78
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMcDonald


Yea...and they are usually living in a trailer in a red state...



Ah, the left's other favorite tactic.* When all else fails, just characterize conservatives as uneducated morons.*
Just to be clear, a lot of folks who vote republican, and the current republican administration...are NOT conservatives.* They're people who get excited about one of the hot button planks the republican party has adopted, such as religion, abortion, guns, etc.

None of those are traditional conservative political planks.

Traditional conservatives are for smaller government, support of business, limited social programs, lower taxes, keeping our countries nose out of other countries businesses, strong defense, strict interpretation and support of the constitution and the bill of rights, etc.

A few of these so-called "red state" voters think they're electing the pope, not a president.

As a long time conservative voter, I see very little of what I want to vote for in this president or the current incarnation of the republican party.* These guys are not "conservative" at all and their voters arent either.* They're voting for a religious pro gun anti abortion anti homosexual that says "nucular", just like they do.
You are one very wise rabbit.
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 05:41 PM   #79
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Dood
As I've said before, both parties suck
The repubicrats or the democans?

At this point, they're the same frickin' guys, once you take the handful of hot button issues away.
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Re: Red State Views
Old 06-06-2006, 06:22 PM   #80
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Re: Red State Views

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Dood
As I've said before, both parties suck
The repubicrats or the democans?

At this point, they're the same frickin' guys, once you take the handful of hot button issues away.
My goodness - are we approaching a consensus in this so far worthless thread?

I vote for option D - all, or as near as I can see it's all of them, of our elected officials are egotistical fops with desires of elitism. They would sign a pact with the devil if it would get them re-elected to public office so they can enrich themselves at public expense. PJ O'Rourke wrote a book whose title summed it all up for me: "Parliament of Whores"
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