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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-24-2004, 08:53 AM   #61
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

Quote:
I've just read 2 pages of posts in this thread, all posted within the last day!

So here's the plan:

...
aiiiieeeee - If the future of retiring is being a seminar facilitator/planner, I'm running back to work

Sounds like a schedule for one of the days where I had to work from home because of family issues, or maybe one of the days where the customer I was working with had a problem that was really hot, and would probably blow up if I didn't get it fixed....

Wayne
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-24-2004, 09:47 AM   #62
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

Quote:
I've just read 2 pages of posts in this thread, all posted within the last day!

So here's the plan:

1) All ER's need to sit down and write out an ER Mission Statement.
[...]
8 ) We will wrap up today at about 5:30.
At which point all of you can go back to your offices, check your phone messages and emails, and do all the work you didn't get accomplished while attending this helpful seminar.


AAaaaahhhhhhh help meee help meee :P

It still comes back to me, like a bad meal...
Take two large glasses of wine, and call me in the morning. I believe this too shall pass.

Dory, when you do DRYcalc, make sure we factor in the scrap factors. That little corner of one I found on the floor softened and destatic'd two more loads. It was such a small scrap, it must have been one of my girlfriends tiny fragments.

I have a simple wardrobe with regards to pressing. I'm sure some of it is supposed to get some. I dont give a $##$ and just wear it the way it comes off the hanger.
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-24-2004, 02:37 PM   #63
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

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Dory, when you do DRYcalc, make sure we factor in the scrap factors. *
Also consider about .20% of the dryer sheet is lost due to thermal lint trap convection, which is a little known dryer phenomenon.


Quote:
I dont give a $##$ and just wear it the way it comes off the hanger.
This has been the plan my entire life and I don't see it changing any time soon. If it can't go straight from the dryer to the hanger it just isn't worth wearing...

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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-24-2004, 02:58 PM   #64
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

Well considering I cut my own hair and only shave once or twice a week I dont think a wrinkle or two in my shirt is going to make a big difference
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-24-2004, 03:06 PM   #65
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

I started cutting my own hair also about a year ago. The $12 a month at Supercuts was getting to be too much in my opinion. I was having a hard time paying the $11, but when they raised their prices by $1, I knew I had to do something. I went out and bought a clipper set for $18 and haven't looked back. No wait in line and takes only five minutes.

(the above may sound like I'm joking... unfortunately I'm not :-/ )
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-24-2004, 08:07 PM   #66
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

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I have a simple wardrobe with regards to pressing. *I'm sure some of it is supposed to get some. *I dont give a $##$ and just wear it the way it comes off the hanger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fire5soon
This has been the plan my entire life and I don't see it changing any time soon. If it can't go straight from the dryer to the hanger it just isn't worth wearing...
What's a hanger? Why wouldn't you just store the clothes you aren't wearing in the dryer or on the line till you need them?
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-24-2004, 08:09 PM   #67
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

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I started cutting my own hair also about a year ago. *The $12 a month at Supercuts was getting to be too much in my opinion. *I was having a hard time paying the $11, but when they raised their prices by $1, I knew I had to do something. *I went out and bought a clipper set for $18 and haven't looked back. *No wait in line and takes only five minutes.

(the above may sound like I'm joking... unfortunately I'm not *:-/ )
I still spend the $10 it costs me to get a haircut at the shop down the street. And I get it cut once a year whether it needs it or not.
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-24-2004, 08:11 PM   #68
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

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What's a hanger? Why wouldn't you just store the clothes you aren't wearing in the dryer or on the line till you need them?
If it makes you feel any better, everything except shirts and pants are rolled into balls and shoved into the cabinet with the most available room.

The results of 42 years as a bachelor.
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-24-2004, 09:15 PM   #69
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

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It's interesting to see the reaction to someone challenging, in even this small way, the orthodoxy of this board. *Didn't Dominguez coin the acronym FIRE? *If I remember correctly the purpose of FI was to work at MORE important pursuits than your current grind, rather than less. *

Ted, may I ask, what ways are you finding to contribute in retirement (besides raising the level of discussion on this board, of course)?
I've been out of town recently and didn't have the chance to respond to the various posts "knocking" me for having the audacity to say what I have said starting with my very first post in this forum. But I would like to respond to bongo2.

I recognize that it is people's right to retire early and totally "drop out" of society, in the sense of no longer contributing anything of economic value, while necessarily continuing to consume what is being produced by others.

From a totally objective, economic standpoint, this is going to become increasingly more difficult for individuals to finance, and increasingly harmful to the overall standard of living in the U.S. Rational economic policies such as international free trade (if not killed by protectionism) and restraint on deficit financing will tend to reduce the damage, but will not totally correct it. The only way to do that is by making adjustments to laws and customs that will encourage people to continue contributing their skills to the economy for as long as they are physically and mentally able to do so.

As I have said in several posts, I regard the ideal "model" to be one of people progressively cutting back on the number of hours worked per week, but continuing to work in the area of their greatest ability. A perfectly acceptable alternative is for people to quit work and start new activities that may very well not pay as much per hour, but which are satisfying to them and (preferably) contribute to the happiness/welfare of others.

I have mentioned this numerous times, and yet all that it seems to mean to most of the participants on this board can be summarized in this quote from GDER that "I think Ted's solution is to work until you drop dead." I'm sure that GDER really does think that that is all that I am saying.

Personally, I have done this by lobbying for political reform of a local sanitation district that, I am convinced, would save 10% to 20% of the costs of a projected $5 billion in expenditures on public works over the next 20 years or so. (That translates into a cost savings of $500 mi9llion to $1 billion.) And I am also working towards becoming registered as an investment advisor, with the idea that I would provide "fee only" investment advice, essentially on a one-time basis similar to a class in investing that a person might take, only on a highly personalized basis.

From the standpoint of my personal values, I don't categorize retiring and "dropping out" as "morally wrong," as long as people are retiring and supporting themselves on "credits" that they have legitimately earned.

But I also think that the highest form of morality is a commitment to the welfare of people other than ourselves or our immediate families. Neither I nor most other people can do this as effectively, or as selflessly, as people like George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Theodore Roosevelt, or Dan Jordan, an acquaintance of mine who was killed in action in Vietnam (where by the flip of a coin I could have been). But those of us who make some effort to achieve this ideal, in my estimation, are a damn site better human beings than those who don't.

And frankly, guys, I'm through giving free investment advice to a bunch of people who obviously don't. (I don't include Dory36 in this category because he is providing a very useful public service with FIRECalc, in addition to whatever else he is probably doing that is of value to the community.)

Bye y'all.
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-24-2004, 10:01 PM   #70
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

Sorry to see you go, Ted. I enjoyed reading your posts.
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-25-2004, 03:09 AM   #71
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

I too am sorry to see you go Ted. What makes this board so useful is the diversity of opinions. I certainly enjoyed reading the quality of your many posts Ted. I will miss your contribution if it is your decision to not post here again.
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-25-2004, 03:48 AM   #72
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

Hang in here, Ted! It is human nature to start feeling defensive when someone points out that actions such as they are taking are not in the best interests of the public. Take their defensiveness as nothing more than that.

I am guessing that anyone who felt they were being attacked personally by your comments on the issues of early retirement and the economy now feels comfortable, having read
Quote:
From the standpoint of my personal values, I don't categorize retiring and "dropping out" as "morally wrong," as long as people are retiring and supporting themselves on "credits" that they have legitimately earned.
If not, so what?

I don't know why, but I'm reminded of the two guys Billy-Bob and Joe-Bob from the hills who decided to take a college course. But they had no idea what to take, so Billy-Bob approaches a professor and asks him.

Prof: Well, there are lots of good courses, but I teach logic. I think it is a great course for anyone to take.

Billy-Bob: What the heck is "logic"?

Prof: It is the science of formal reasoning, of using rules and inference to reach valid conclusions.

Billy-Bob: Huh?

Prof: Let me give an example. Do you have a lawnmower?

Billy-Bob: Yep.

Prof: Well, then I conclude you are heterosexual.

Billy-Bob: Well yeah, but how did you figure that from me having a lawnmower?

Prof: Logic. Since you have a lawn mower, I can assume you have a lawn. If you have a lawn, you must have a house. If you have a house, you are very likely to be married. And if you are married, you are probably heterosexual. You see, none of these rules are absolute, but all are logical conclusions. By understanding the rules of inference and formal reasoning, we can often reach valid conclusions that do not seem obvious from the initial facts we know.

Billy-Bob returns to the table where Joe-Bob is waiting, and announces he is going to take Logic 101.

Joe-Bob: What the heck is logic?

Billy-Bob: Let me give you an example. Do you have a lawnmower?

Joe-Bob: No.

Billy-Bob: I knew it! You're gay!

Dory36
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-25-2004, 06:53 AM   #73
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

All:

Would have addressed my comments to Ted, but his last post was a bye y'all signoff.
Don't like the idea that I may be piling on, but anyway-.

Have gleaned some pretty good ideas from a number of posters on this board.

My own observations from the posts I have seen are that most of the posters are pretty middle of the road, hard working types that "built up plenty of credits".

I was pretty miserable the last year that I spent chasing the buck.

When I decided to pull the pin, there were two very happy folks. Me, and the guy that replaced me. (Happy ending).

I think Teds problem with the board was he didn't understand the congregation that he was preaching to.

Jarhead
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-25-2004, 06:59 AM   #74
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

Aw Ted, you can't go! You're an oldtimer here, and I always enjoyed reading and thinking about your economic posts (and I think I've said that in the past, too ). And you have helped me, and many many others here. So walk around the house 10 times, and come on back!

I agree with you on the idea of being able to wind down work as a transistion to retirement. I certainly would have liked to, like working 2 days a week, or something like that. Alas, when an industry crashes and thousands and thousands of people are going out the door, there was no alternative.

In good times, the corporate world would have to make a lot of structural changes to do it. Many issues to be addressed, like:

Vacation Benefits - None? - or scaled-down?
Same for Holiday pay
Same for sick days
Effects on Retirement Plan elegibility/$ inflow in part-time work?
401k plan effects
All the mandatory classes on no harassment, etc. etc. become a bigger expense per-person if hours are reduced.
Can the work still be done per-schedule if a person is part-time?
Or is there enough work that is not time-critical that part-time people could do those tasks?

Right now, I don't think many companies are in a mindset to create another class of employees, and work out these issues. I think they should, but it may take a "full employement economy" again, and a shortage of skilled workers to nudge them to think about it. I think it may take a leader company, someone very profitable to do it. Then others may follow as the "right thing to do".

My experiences with the corporate "Human Relations" people is that they do the least possible work. They were the ones I saw putting in 8 hours a day max (really, they usually came in late, and often left early!). These people would be the ones to research and implement a plan, with all of its adjustments. I just don't see them being interested in the concept.

Overall, I think it could be made to work, if the number of transitioners is very small. But the culture will need a major overhaul to make it happen.

Different topic - One time Financial Planning for a fee. I think that is a better idea for people than going to "Financial Advisors" whose ulterior motive is to sell what they have in their stable, (all with "no fees" to the user, of course ).
I have learned a lot since I got started in this, and I got started in an emergency. I had enough sense and gut feel to steer out of the worst clutches, but there are many things I would have done differently if I knew then what I know now.
An unbiased person who could have laid out some plans of action, with well-reasoned backup, would have been a big plus. But I would really have to feel that they were working in my best interest. Something better than a financial doc-in-a-box program. And if they really are working in my best interest, with no kickbacks from the investment choices, then my paying them a fee is the only inducement they will have to take the job on.

In contrast to the above, a fee-based planner who collects 2% of someones portfolio each and every year to "maintain" it sounds more like a leech!
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-25-2004, 12:20 PM   #75
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

Ted: I, too, am sorry to see you go. I'll miss the high quality of the financial advice contained in your posts, as well as the sagacity of your observations on retired life.
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-25-2004, 02:31 PM   #76
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

Ted - The variety of opinions is expected, and we all do not agree on everything. After looking back over this thread, I think that I, and maybe others, have responded more to the tone of your post than to the content. To me, the tone of your posts sounds like burnout - based on my limited experience.

Your leaving will reduce the diversity of opinions on the board, and I'm sorry to see you go. Consider coming back after you take a break! In any case, good luck, and thanks for the many interesting posts.'

Wayne
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-25-2004, 06:05 PM   #77
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

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. . .
And frankly, guys, I'm through giving free investment advice to a bunch of people who obviously don't. *(I don't include Dory36 in this category because he is providing a very useful public service with FIRECalc, in addition to whatever else he is probably doing that is of value to the community.)

Bye y'all.
Ted,

Would you consider continuing with our discussions if we all pitched in and bought you a box of dryer sheets?

Good luck. If you are finding this stressful, then you just don't need it.
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-25-2004, 06:14 PM   #78
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

Ted, I am new to this forum, and hardly know of the contributions you've made or not made. Nor of the tones and personalities here. I feel poorly that a discussion I started has resulted in bad feelings. I can only offer that if you feel some sort of urge to return something to a community, that your advice, wisdom and if so be it diversity are helpful. I'm pretty dumb about a lot of this ER stuff, and need help. I'm sorry I can't offer more advice, but will do so when I can. I do know that life is not meant to be tied up in some uncomforable undies, and you should do what you want.
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-25-2004, 09:01 PM   #79
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

Oh boy...

Well I think I was part of this, so here are my 4 cents.

I wont bore anyone with tales of living hand to mouth and working 80 hours a week until I managed to get myself into a position where I could make enough to retire early, despite a lack of formal education and with no silver spoons nearby.

Suffice it to say that it was a long hard road, with a lot of compression of good and bad times.

I feel no guilt or remorse in taking at least a few years to smell the roses and be "unproductive". I would feel just as little remorse in remaining "unproductive" until I dropped dead in my wheaties.

Through the course of time, and to this day, I have and continue to influence peoples lives in what I hope is a positive manner. There are surely a long line of people who regularly tell me that I did more for them than anyone else in their lives. And with less reason to.

What I bristled at frankly was a guy who doesnt know me or anyone else here particularly well proclaiming that he was going to reserve his respect for me or anyone on the basis of his opinion of our values as human beings with regards to the frankly damn skimpy information he has about us.

Now in this latest incantation, we're immoral, selfish and undeserving. Excuse me sir, but I'm none of the above, and you neither have the information nor the right to come to that determination.

Frankly Ted, I think you're a smart guy. I've enjoyed your posts, input and feedback. I think you have a lot to offer a community like this (or any other). However you can just as frankly keep the holier-than-thou crap.

I hope you continue here. If you dont, the loss of your knowledge will definitely take something away from the hive.

By the way, I'm a great admirer of Franklin as well. Be advised though that he, Washington, and a lot of the other guys you mentioned and are thinking of had a lot of time to "adjust history" (in their older ages) in how they were perceived, and their successes allowed them to be remembered only from the better perspectives. Many of them were scoundrels, selfish, immoral and as undeserving of their place as you and I are.

Despite the harsh words, I hope you live well and I would wish you good luck, but then we all know that luck is never a factor.
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job
Old 02-27-2004, 02:55 PM   #80
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Re: Retirement vs Perfect Job

Thanks for a highly amusing thread.

Now I'll have to go trawl around to see whether any of Ted's financial advice was worthwhile.

Finally, somebody should update the glossary/acronym thread. It took me quite a while to figure out what dryer sheet stood for.
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