Running Fridge/Lights from LEAF

[TromboneAl]

I realized that maybe we should do this when the power goes out:

Summary: Use an inverter to get 110 V from the LEAF's 12 V battery. The driver battery recharges the 12 V.

I don't like the noise of a generator.

The specs on the fridge say 15A, so I guess I'd get a 2000 W inverter. Even if we ran the charge down, we'd just charge up when the power came back.

 

[BigMoneyJim]

Nifty.

I guess I'd get a 2000 W inverter.

But she says the DC-to-DC charger in the Leaf is 1kW, so...not sure the 2kW inverter would work as the 12V battery would have a net drain.

 

[Walt34]

Timely thread for us. As I write we are running off a Honda EX4500 generator, one of the older model "ultra quiet" ones, according to the specs, 65 dBA. I can hear it, but barely.

I bought the generator after we were without power for four days after an ice storm at the old house. This is the first time we've used it here in the 16 years we been living here, but I knew the day after I sold it we'd need it.

DW is happy we have the furnace (natural gas) running, some lights, and the refrigerator. And of course the computer.

Lots of high winds, our local utilities are all underground so it is rare for a sustained power outage. We've got fuel for overnight and then some but I might have to go out and forage for fuel tomorrow. I'd be surprised if this kept up for that long though.

 

[REWahoo]

DW is happy we have the furnace (natural gas) running, some lights, and the refrigerator. And of course the computer.

...and internet, obviously.

 

[38Chevy454]

The 1 kW will work since the actual running power of the fridge is less than 1000W.

 

[TromboneAl]

Nifty.



But she says the DC-to-DC charger in the Leaf is 1kW, so...not sure the 2kW inverter would work as the 12V battery would have a net drain.

Right, but only with a continuous drain of over 1 kW. Fridge probably uses much less most of the time.

I'll try thing out with my small inverter to see if the idea is practical (without fridge).

 

[marko]

Modern fridges today have all kinds of electronics that are sensitive to voltage/amperage changes and so on. I'd be careful.

We once had a minor power surge that fried the electronics on our fridge and killed it.

 

[W2R]

Timely thread for us. As I write we are running off a Honda EX4500 generator, one of the older model "ultra quiet" ones, according to the specs, 65 dBA. I can hear it, but barely.

I bought the generator after we were without power for four days after an ice storm at the old house. This is the first time we've used it here in the 16 years we been living here, but I knew the day after I sold it we'd need it.

DW is happy we have the furnace (natural gas) running, some lights, and the refrigerator. And of course the computer.

Lots of high winds, our local utilities are all underground so it is rare for a sustained power outage. We've got fuel for overnight and then some but I might have to go out and forage for fuel tomorrow. I'd be surprised if this kept up for that long though.

Glad you have heat, and I sure hope your power is restored soon. Good thing you have that generator!

 

[NW-Bound]

I did not know the LEAF has a DC/DC converter that can recharge the 12V battery from the propulsion battery, and that its capacity is as high as 1kW. Wonderful!

Now, to convert that 12VDC to 110V, may I suggest the Xantrex Prowatt SW2000? It outputs a true sine wave, not the crappy MSW (modified sine wave) that cheaper ones put out. Another thing that I like is its low idle power consumption of 6W. That testifies to its efficiency and low loss.

About the load, even a large fridge like my 30-c.f. only draws around 350W when running. However, the surge current when the compressor starts may be above 1kW, so the above Xantrex would be more than adequate, particularly if you also have other loads such as lighting on it.

The LEAF propulsion battery is large enough (24kWh for the 1st gen) that it should sustain the fridge and light loads over 24 hours. I measured my fridge at less than 5 kWh/day, and we opened it all the time.

Even when you have sustained outages, recharging the LEAF with a generator will require running the latter only a few hours each day and not continuously. That helps tremendously with the noise, and the care/feeding of the generator.

 

[NW-Bound]

An important note about wiring:

Forget about attaching a large inverter of 1kW or 2kW like the Xantrex to the battery with chintzy alligator clamps. The current drawn will be more than 100A, and can reach 200A during surge load.

You want solid bolted-on lugs. And use at least 0-AWG cables. Smaller 2-AWG cables may be used if you keep the cables short, like less than 2 ft.

 

[NW-Bound]

The Xantrex I talked about earlier has a good efficiency, such that its internal fan does not turn on with a 1kW sustained load (because it does not get hot). As mentioned earlier, when there's no load, it consumes only 6W.

I have not seen an inverter that boasts a lower idle consumption. Some do, but they do that by the inverter powering down when there's no load, then turning on periodically to see if there's a load out there. When the fridge is not running, its electronics present such a low load that it would be missed by such inverters. You would be pulsing your fridge, and it won't like it. Small LED lights would also be pulsing. Totally uncool!

 

[bjorn2bwild]

The specs on the fridge say 15A, so I guess I'd get a 2000 W inverter.

15A seems high. Our large LG side by side shows 3.85A on the label inside the fridge compartment.

During the four day power outage last week it ran fine on a 1500/3000W (running/surge) MSW inverter. The pure sine wave type will be more efficient and nicer to electronics as noted by NW-Bound.

 

[ERD50]

An important note about wiring:

Forget about attaching a large inverter of 1kW or 2kW like the Xantrex to the battery with chintzy alligator clamps. The current drawn will be more than 100A, and can reach 200A during surge load.

You want solid bolted-on lugs. And use at least 0-AWG cables. Smaller 2-AWG cables may be used if you keep the cables short, like less than 2 ft.

Yes, I powered the freezer for a few hours during an extended outage a few years back, and even though I know that you need really, really good connections on the battery side to handle the surge current, I still underestimated it, and the inverter kept shutting down and cycling on start up. I had to start the engine to boost the voltage to at least get past the start up surge.

You need extremely good connections on the battery to inverter. No messing around.

15A seems high. Our large LG side by side shows 3.85A on the label inside the fridge compartment. ....

The 15A would be a start up surge. No way a fridge will draw 15A continuous. That would require a 20A outlet anyhow (15A are rated at 80% for continuous).

-ERD50

 

[bjorn2bwild]

The 15A would be a start up surge. No way a fridge will draw 15A continuous. That would require a 20A outlet anyhow (15A are rated at 80% for continuous).
-ERD50

Yes, I know there will be a surge when starting.
I was suggesting a smaller than 2000W inverter would suffice - i.e. there will be a running/surge rating for the inverter to account for the start up.

 

[ERD50]

Yes, I know there will be a surge when starting.
I was suggesting a smaller than 2000W inverter would suffice - i.e. there will be a running/surge rating for the inverter to account for the start up.

Yes, but be careful. You can find 1000/2000W ( cont/surge) inverters. But the peak is a hard limit. Semiconductors can't take an over-current situation in the same way copper wires and iron armatures can. Iron/copper heats relatively slowly, and can withstand fairly high temperatures. The silicon die can be damaged by lower heat much quicker.

And even if it says 2000 'peak' - how long is that? Do they say? It might be 1/60th of a second (one cycle, limited by capacitors?). What if the fridge draws > 1000W for 1 or 2 seconds?

And it's possible that 15 A may not be the actual peak, that may be integrated over time, with a higher current, shorter pulse. I'm just suggesting to be conservative, and go with a larger inverter than you think you might need. A refrigerator is a tough load. Read reviews to make sure it works with most fridges of that size.

-ERD50

 

[Spock]

Inverter quality is all over the map. I just returned 2 this week. While they may claim to handle 2kw steady with a higher surge, its not uncommon to see them trip out at 1500w steady resistive loads. Some inverter data sheets (if you can read Chinglish) suggest 10x (!!) higher ratings to handle in-rush currents from inductive loads on compressor motors. One of my professors once sneered at then modern mass produced electric motors as "they don't design them any more, they just build them" (and that was nevermind how many decades ago before plastic parts were invovled)... a well designed motor will have about 3x startup loads, so 7-10x for todays motors might be appropriate.


Start with buying or borrowing a kill-a-watt meter however it will not display start-up loads. If nothing else its eye-opening to see how much some electronics draw even when "off".

 

[bjorn2bwild]

Yes, but be careful. You can find 1000/2000W ( cont/surge) inverters. But the peak is a hard limit. Semiconductors can't take an over-current situation in the same way copper wires and iron armatures can. Iron/copper heats relatively slowly, and can withstand fairly high temperatures. The silicon die can be damaged by lower heat much quicker.

And even if it says 2000 'peak' - how long is that? Do they say? It might be 1/60th of a second (one cycle, limited by capacitors?). What if the fridge draws > 1000W for 1 or 2 seconds?

And it's possible that 15 A may not be the actual peak, that may be integrated over time, with a higher current, shorter pulse. I'm just suggesting to be conservative, and go with a larger inverter than you think you might need. A refrigerator is a tough load. Read reviews to make sure it works with most fridges of that size.
-ERD50

Good information, thanks.
P.S - Ditto @ NW-Bound
In my real world example given above, I used a Harbor Freight Jupiter 1500/3000W modified sine wave inverter to power the fridge, some CFT lighting (4 15W bulbs), the blower to the propane fireplace, and the tankless water heater simultaneously. I unplugged the fridge and switched on the TV (25" CRT) and the Dish receiver for evening entertainment. The Dish box did not 'like' the quality of the electricity but everything else worked fine. Probably 15+ hours of use and many fridge start cycles.

 

[LOL!]

FWIW, I have cheap little 300 W inverter for my car to charge electronics that have no USB charge-input and a 115 V plug such as a laptop. It works. But this cheap inverter does not produce what I would call a good sine wave. But the laptop AC adapter takes care of it.

Anyways, you go first and try this with your fridge and tell us how it went. Thanks!

 

[fosterscik]

Interesting thread. I have a c-max hybrid and it appears it would also work this way. It has a 2 kW dc-dc converter powering its 12-V system, so I will probably try this out.
Tell me about the C-Max HV battery and hybrid electrical system - General Discussion - Ford C-MAX Hybrid Forum

 

[Spock]

Another twist. There is a sub-culture of people that hack their EVs to use in place of something like Tesla Powerwalls to power their whole house with off-peak power. They charge the batt on off-peak and then use the batt to power the house during peak hours. They do this full time, not just during power outages.
The trade off is "what if I need to go somewhere but my car is down to 20% charge after running my house during the day".


If you want to take steps for something like this, skip the cheap "car inverters" and buy building blocks for whole house inverters used in solar installs.



Then you can take it a step farther and recycle old laptop batteries to build your own powerwall-like house batt.

 

[Lakewood90712]

15A seems high. Our large LG side by side shows 3.85A on the label inside the fridge compartment.

During the four day power outage last week it ran fine on a 1500/3000W (running/surge) MSW inverter. The pure sine wave type will be more efficient and nicer to electronics as noted by NW-Bound.

The running current of a refrig is usually between 150 and 400 watts , depending on size, starting current is x 2.5 to 5x depending on how " vintage" the frig is .

On cheap inverters, I have fried more than one electronic device. A fax machine, and an electric typewriter ( dont laugh too hard on that one )

I keep a deepcycle trolling motor battery charged at moms house for power outages, for lights only. Had to dig out the genney a few times over the years ( trees knocking down transmission lines in winter storms) Would get a T Power wall, but $15k is a little steep for me. ( The Tesla website says I cant reserve just one, have to reserve 2. )

EDIT Virtually all EV's use a standard 12 volt auto battery to power the brain and mundane things like audio system, lights etc so the car isn't without vital systems if the traction battery goes down. I would hesitate to tap this on an ev. Al, better to use the pickup truck battery for this, but it's very bad to deeply discharge a car battery.

 

[NW-Bound]

True or pure sine wave inverters are so affordable now, I see no need to experiment with cheaper ones to see what appliances/devices you will burn out and what will work. The recommended Xantrex SW2000 I mentioned could be had for less than $400.

About using EVs or hybrid cars as a source of electricity, the Prius will automatically start its ICE engine to recharge the propulsion battery as needed. I wonder if it also recharges the 12V battery, and if so what capacity that DC/DC converter has.

If the above works, it would be cool to use your Prius as an emergency generator. It's quiet too.

 

[fosterscik]

True or pure sine wave inverters are so affordable now, I see no need to experiment with cheaper ones to see what appliances/devices you will burn out and what will work. The recommended Xantrex SW2000 I mentioned could be had for less than $400.

About using EVs or hybrid cars as a source of electricity, the Prius will automatically start its ICE engine to recharge the propulsion battery as needed. I wonder if it also recharges the 12V battery, and if so what capacity that DC/DC converter has.

If the above works, it would be cool to use your Prius as an emergency generator. It's quiet too.

I'm sure it's similar to my C-max that I mention up-thread. The C-max has a 2kW DC/DC converter to charge the 12 V battery. So as long as I have a full tank of gas, I should have a nice power outage remediation system (PORS... almost a good acronym )

 

[bjorn2bwild]

True or pure sine wave inverters are so affordable now, I see no need to experiment with cheaper ones to see what appliances/devices you will burn out and what will work. The recommended Xantrex SW2000 I mentioned could be had for less than $400.

And plan ahead.
When both of my generators failed, I had to settle for what was available locally. The one I bought was the only one left on the cleaned out shelving. The cashier assured me that the inverter was returnable if I was not satisfied with the quality, so that is what I did.

 

[ERD50]

....

About using EVs or hybrid cars as a source of electricity, the Prius will automatically start its ICE engine to recharge the propulsion battery as needed. I wonder if it also recharges the 12V battery, and if so what capacity that DC/DC converter has.

If the above works, it would be cool to use your Prius as an emergency generator. It's quiet too.

I fear someone will do that with their hybrid car parked in their closed garage. That could end badly.

I would think any car that could auto-start the ICE in this manner would need a CO detector to shut it down above a certain level.

-ERD50