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Old 11-03-2012, 04:40 PM   #201
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I hope ING redeems their selves and move those generators and portapotties to somewhere they can be useful for the next week.
Everyone is talking about charging cellphones and Starbucks and not much about water and sewer in the high rises.
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Old 11-03-2012, 04:49 PM   #202
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The relief efforts and public commentary are following the typical pattern established after all hurricanes that I have participated in. This NYTimes article tells the tale: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/04/ny...ane-sandy.html

Once the relatively easy things are fixed, the harder small things will get attended to. Folks need to be prepared to live without government help for a couple of weeks. No sense in getting angry about it. For folks in demolished homes, nothing will restore those homes in 2 weeks. They need to find a new base (relatives, hotel, another state) to live from or go into extended camping mode.

I wonder if the government should schedule annual 2-week shutdowns of electricity to different ZIP codes on a rolling basis just to get people used to the idea of disasters.
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Old 11-03-2012, 04:52 PM   #203
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Less of a crisis but interesting anyway is the amount of debris stacked up at the Van Metre Ford Stone Bridge. I went down there today to take some pictures. It is one of the oldest, if not the oldest, bridge in West Virginia.

When this happens they have to use a crane to haul out the tree trunks and stuff that block the arches of the bridge. The last two photos are taken standing on the bridge.
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Old 11-03-2012, 05:34 PM   #204
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Everyone is talking about charging cellphones and Starbucks and not much about water and sewer in the high rises.
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The relief efforts and public commentary are following the typical pattern established after all hurricanes that I have participated in. This NYTimes article tells the tale: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/04/ny...ane-sandy.html
After any disaster, whether hurricanes or earthquakes, people in high-density areas will always suffer more than people living in the boonies. The latter have their individual septic tank, a large external propane tank for heating and cooking, quite often their own well, and are used to and have room to stockpile provisions. A small generator is usually all they would need to survive for a few weeks.

On the other hand, people in inner cities are a lot more dependent on the infrastructure working to have the support for the modern lifestyle. Grocery stores need constant replenishment by trucking, same as with gas stations. When transportation gets disrupted or power is lost, everything falls apart. Fresh water or sewer station pumps need power to run.

Of course people with money can leave town, but most people would just be stuck. This could happen to anybody.
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Old 11-03-2012, 06:51 PM   #205
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After any disaster, whether hurricanes or earthquakes, people in high-density areas will always suffer more...
I sometimes think that the density of our modern cities borders on negligence. It really does make it tough in an emergency.

Our MegaCorp used to run fire drills about once a year. Manufacturing was on a one or two story building, and you can get a thousand people out in a couple minutes. In a high rise, that turns into a huge problem.

It's incredible to see some of these pictures from Sandy, with so much of the city hit with flooding. It just seems crazy to me to not have everything way above the high-tide and storm surge levels. I read an article about how they recently developed inflatable seals that could be used in subway tunnels to block flood waters, but they only have a few made at this point.

Even Chicago had a problem not so long ago - a construction crew broke through the river into the underground tunnel infrastructure, and much of downtown was shut down for a couple days. There is just s much dependency on a few fragile systems.

OTOH, how much do you invest in prevention or response for a rare event? Maybe it's just cheaper to deal with it? I dunno.

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Old 11-03-2012, 07:22 PM   #206
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I sometimes think that the density of our modern cities borders on negligence. It really does make it tough in an emergency.

Our MegaCorp used to run fire drills about once a year. Manufacturing was on a one or two story building, and you can get a thousand people out in a couple minutes. In a high rise, that turns into a huge problem.
People like to live in crowded cities because it's more lively. There are also more jobs. Even centralized governments like China that restrict movement of people into the cities could not keep them out.

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It's incredible to see some of these pictures from Sandy, with so much of the city hit with flooding. It just seems crazy to me to not have everything way above the high-tide and storm surge levels.
This is a 100-year storm. People were OK for a very long time until this. If we exclude areas based on all 100-year events, there may very little safe areas left to live and to make a living. Here in the SW (where I am) and Texas, nobody talks about a 100-year drought yet, but who knows if it is not coming? Other than the summer heat and potential lack of water (if we have poor snow fall up in the northern part of the state), there is no other natural hazard.

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OTOH, how much do you invest in prevention or response for a rare event? Maybe it's just cheaper to deal with it? I dunno.
-ERD50
I dunno either. Spreading people living space out, and it will cost a lot more to bring them jobs, food, water, electricity, etc...

Just surfed the Web and saw photos of rows of houses being totally flattened to the foundation. Turned out it was not the storm, but rather a fire that leveled them. Fire! In the middle of a hurricane! Apparently, the fire was started by electric shorts or gas line breaks. Imagine what may happen in an earthquake, where there is no deluge of water to keep the fire in check.
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:28 PM   #207
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With regard to storing gas, we ran into this issue when the derecho came through in July. We bought a 5.5KW gas generator from Home Depot. It was an emergency purchase and this was the only model available. The units are typically rated for hours of run time at half load. Ours had a 7 gallon tank and it was rated for something like 12 hrs. We were actually using about 5 gal/day and I shut the unit off at night. It was a real pain getting gas because so many gas stations were closed due to no power. Transporting 5 or more gal at a time is awkward and hazardous anyway, compounded by the fact that I was driving farther away to find a gas station.

I concluded the only safe way is to use something specifically designed to store and transport gasoline.....our cars. So now I just try to fill up at least two of our vehicles before the storm (something we would be inclined to do anyway) and that is probably enough to last a week or so.

We lost power early on Monday as Sandy arrived and I waited until the next morning to set up the generator. I had never considered how to keep it out of the rain and snow, so I had to rig up a spot under the deck. Three hours after setting it up, the power came back on.
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Old 11-03-2012, 08:53 PM   #208
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I don't blame people for living where there's danger of hurricanes, floods, tornadoes, winter storms, earthquakes, tsunamis, forest fires, brush fires, etc...

After all, not everyone is tough enough to deal with scorpions, rattlesnakes, fire ants, ticks, chiggers, tarantulas, brown recluse spiders, copperheads, cottonmouths, rabid skunks, wild hogs, etc...

And even when you think you have put up a good defense perimeter against these murderous critters, comes one sizzling summer of 120F temperature with the electric grid blacked out from overload, and people will be dropping like flies from the heat.

If it's not one thing, it's 'nother. There is no place to hide, I'll tell ya.
I had to read your post 3x to make sure I didn't miss seeing OMG why do I still live here ? the magic "S" word

SN*W

'Winter storm' was close, but no cigar.

Every time I read this list here on the forum...our own little community poem
scorpions, rattlesnakes, fire ants, ticks, chiggers, tarantulas, brown recluse spiders, copperheads, cottonmouths, rabid skunks, wild hogs, etc...

I think to myself, well, maybe the snow isn't so bad after all. Then December to February happens. You all know the rest.
Has anyone ever started a virtual "pool" to see when Freebird gets cabin fever ? It should be obvious from my winter posts.
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:19 PM   #209
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I meant to say blizzards instead of winter storms. Obviously, I have not lived in places like upstate NY to know that heavy snow can be a real problem. But what I wanted to list were disasters that could kill, not something that one can endure year after year.

The summer heat here (122F record high) is bad, but that only becomes a catastrophe if we lose electricity or water. Else, I would stay cool inside, surfing the web as usual. Same as you, by the fireside in the winter, no?
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:25 PM   #210
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SN*W
Been there, done that
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:29 PM   #211
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Been there, done that
Are these Sandy related sn*w pics ?

I haven't been online for a few days, so I may have missed that.
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:34 PM   #212
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I meant to say blizzards instead of winter storms. Obviously, I have not lived in places like upstate NY to know that heavy snow can be a real problem. But what I wanted to list were disasters that could kill, not something that one can endure year after year.

The summer heat here (122F record high) is bad, but that only becomes a catastrophe if we lose electricity or water. Else, I would stay cool inside, surfing the web as usual. Same as you, by the fireside in the winter, no?
I'm just kidding with ya.

I always chuckle when I read the fire ants, scorpions, chiggers...list. It kinda makes me cringe. I don't like spiders and snakes.

But yes, intense heat requiring staying indoors in AC = intense cold requiring staying indoors in BTUs + shovel
or
IH = IC + S

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Old 11-03-2012, 11:57 PM   #213
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With regard to storing gas, we ran into this issue when the derecho came through in July. We bought a 5.5KW gas generator from Home Depot. It was an emergency purchase and this was the only model available.

...We were actually using about 5 gal/day and I shut the unit off at night. It was a real pain getting gas...

I concluded the only safe way is to use something specifically designed to store and transport gasoline.....our cars.
The so called "contractor generators" are a bit noisy, and being of the old type that has to run at a constant RPM they still burn a bit of gas even when the load is low. In contrast, the generator/inverter type will vary its speed depending on the load. This way, when you only run a light load of just a refrigerator plus a light or two, the generator regulates itself to run at a lower speed, is quieter, and burns less gasoline.

There are many generators of the inverter type on the market. The Honda mentioned earlier and the Yamaha shown by FIREd are the two premier brands. There are now many Chinese work-alikes that are cheaper and likely of less quality, of which the Champion carried by Costco is the most well-known.

Regarding using auto fuel tanks for gasoline storage, the only problem might be in siphoning it out. I am able to tap into the fuel line of my cars to get their fuel pump to work for me, but this is a bit tricky.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:52 AM   #214
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I think it was January, 1978, that southern Indiana was hit with a big snow storm, compounded by high winds and drifts. i went to work on 3rd shift, on a Friday night I think, and the next morning nothing but the tops of cars were visible in the parking lot. It was two days later before a farmer with a big enough tractor managed to plow his way to us, so we could get out. Ate every last piece of candy and junk food out of the vending machines.

My folks lived a few miles out of town on a lake. After several days, they managed to move enough snow out of the way to form a one lane passage out there. It was mid-March before all that snow melted...

Luckily, power and water and sewer all kept working.
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:41 AM   #215
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Are these Sandy related sn*w pics ?

I haven't been online for a few days, so I may have missed that.
No, these are from a few years ago. Sandy did dump similiar amounts in the mountains west of here though.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:10 AM   #216
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Many newer cars have antisiphoning grids inside the tank, so you may need to be prepared to extract the fuel from your car via a different way.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:30 PM   #217
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Regarding using auto fuel tanks for gasoline storage, the only problem might be in siphoning it out. I am able to tap into the fuel line of my cars to get their fuel pump to work for me, but this is a bit tricky.
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Many newer cars have antisiphoning grids inside the tank, so you may need to be prepared to extract the fuel from your car via a different way.
Does anyone have a good reference source for doing this? I've often thought that it would be better to tap into my car for the 1~2 gallon/week I might need in mowing season, than to make the trip with a 2.5G gas can, and then have a partially full can in the garage. I could fill the tractor direct, as needed.

We bought a Honda CR-V last year, so I'd be looking to mod that, since we should have it a long time yet. Seems like a tee and a valve and a quick-disconnect hose should be pretty simple, but I don't know if there are any 'tricks' with the way fuel pumps and emission systems work these days.

-ERD50
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:51 PM   #218
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Once the relatively easy things are fixed, the harder small things will get attended to. Folks need to be prepared to live without government help for a couple of weeks. No sense in getting angry about it. For folks in demolished homes, nothing will restore those homes in 2 weeks. They need to find a new base (relatives, hotel, another state) to live from or go into extended camping mode.

.
One of the issues will be updated building codes. I saw a shot from the Jersey shore where a recent house was built on stilts with a soft story (breakaway walls) where as an older house had a solid ground floor. All over 50% will have to be built on stilts now. Consider the number of houses on Staten Island with flooded basements, will basements be allowed? Of course other issues with building codes on non direct flood related issues will arise, such as gcfi receptacles in kitchens and bathrooms and outside.
In addition hurricane clips and better securing of the house to the foundation will be required.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:57 PM   #219
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A photo of soldiers guarding the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier from September that went viral on the Internet today, as Hurricane Sandy hit the East Coast.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:02 PM   #220
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One of the issues will be updated building codes. I saw a shot from the Jersey shore where a recent house was built on stilts with a soft story (breakaway walls) where as an older house had a solid ground floor. All over 50% will have to be built on stilts now. Consider the number of houses on Staten Island with flooded basements, will basements be allowed? Of course other issues with building codes on non direct flood related issues will arise, such as gcfi receptacles in kitchens and bathrooms and outside.
In addition hurricane clips and better securing of the house to the foundation will be required.
A discussion of changing the building codes in and around NYC:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/04/ny...w-reality.html

And a suggestion that folks not be allowed to rebuild:
http://www.npr.org/2012/11/04/164193...r-sandy-breach
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