Selecting Guns for Personal Protection

[REWahoo]

Ha is still here...

Yeah, some of us apparently haven't yet gotten a life.

 

[LeatherneckPA]

REWahoo, I didn't even notice it was three years old, just saw a post that I can actually offer intelligent advice on, instead of my usual pleading the wisdom of the collective. Having spent the last 25 years in law enforcement I feel quite qualified to offer advice on this subject.

Remington 870 pump shotgun with an 18 inch barrel is the classic home defense firearm.* Takes more aiming than implied above, but it is an excellent defensive firearm ... can fire 00 buckshot, bird shot, slugs, etc.* Very versatile.

There are rifles that fire the same ammo as handguns.* For example, Marlin makes excellent lever action rifles that fire .44 magnum, .357 magnum ... both popular cartridges for revolvers.*

Great handguns are Glocks, Smith & Wesson revolvers (stainless steel sounds good for you), Ruger revolvers, Sig's, H&K, perhaps in that order considering your comments.

Bottom line is you can spend hours debating the relative merits of different firearms for different uses, but these are some classic choices.

Definitely get some training ...

Craig, this was a beautifully reasoned response. The rule of thumb on a 12ga with an open barrel is that the load will spread one inch per yard. So if you are shooting across your living room (20 ft avg) your spread will only be about 6-7 inches. Add to that the fact that the average Joe is going to try to hip shoot it like they see in Hollywood and the odds of actually hitting the target are pretty slim. And slugs don't spread at all. In my not so humble opinion, the greatest value of a 12 ga pump for home defense is that EVERYONE is fluent in "cha-ching"and nobody really wants to argue at that point.

The OP's request for a matching rifle for a NOLA situation was WONDERFUL! Only having one type of ammo to mess with is a point civilians seldom consider. And your recommendation of a lever action Marlin was right on the money. My personal choice would be a Ruger SP101 in .357 and a matching rifle, or a Ruger Vaquero in 45 Colt with the matching rifle.

Any time you get a bunch of gun-nuts together (term used with respect and endearment) the never-ending "Best Gun" debate has fueled many a late night discussion at deer camp, around the camp fires, or sitting in the towers of a penitentiary. Nobody ever wins, and I doubt very much that anybody is ever converted. Still, they can be fun and informative.

Training is an absolute must!!! If the OP honestly believes he can put a gun in his closet, take it out years into the future and hit anything other than the closet door (shooting from inside the closet) he is sadly mistaken. The image of the retired gunfighter/lawman who can retrieve his pistols from a dusty trunk in the attic and still hit the broad side of his barn is pure Hollywood. I see trained LEO's every year who barely pass qualification because they only shoot once a year, at qualification. Especially with firearms, the old adage of use it or lose it is very true.

Despite all evidence to the contrary, gun proponents believe they are safer owning a gun. *They have never been in a situation when they could use a gun to safety advantage, but they are convinced owning a gun makes them safer.

There is no evidence to the contrary. People without the means to protect themselves and their families are merely victims. That is why every totalitarian government in history has outlawed the ownership of personal weapons. I think the best we can do is agree to disagree. Hijacking a thread to turn it into a pro-gun/anti-gun debate is poor etiquette. Since the OP was asking for gun advice it can be safely assumed he has made a reasoned decision to acquire one, and it should be left at that.

.....the police usually show up in time to draw the chalk lines and take witness statements.

Sad, but true.

C'mon guys. As we have learned from many a diatribe, people are never convinced of any alternate position through challenges on a forum....Or as my wife might say, "Yes, every thing you have just said is probably true. I don't care."

As I observed above, even in a group of certified gun-nuts, you aren't going to convince anyone with discussion, and certainly not with name calling.

As for your DW's retort, have you EVER figured out a way to respond to that? I sure haven't. For us it arose when I wanted to transfer for a promotion. DW said "Fine, but I refuse to live in CA, TX, or FL." I asked why. "Earthquakes, tornadoes, and hurricanes" was her response. No amount of explanation or logic could alter her position. So we just stayed here in PA.

 

[Walt34]

Training is an absolute must!!! If the OP honestly believes he can put a gun in his closet, take it out years into the future and hit anything other than the closet door (shooting from inside the closet) he is sadly mistaken. The image of the retired gunfighter/lawman who can retrieve his pistols from a dusty trunk in the attic and still hit the broad side of his barn is pure Hollywood.

I'd agree, except for my own experience on that. Last winter I had to qualify again with a 9mm for a job. I hadn't fired a shot for five years, and qualified the first round. Even I was amazed. Okay, it wasn't great shooting, that took a few more rounds, but I was pleasantly surprised at how easily it came back.

Maybe I just have a talent for it, or it's like riding a bicycle? When I started in law enforcement I'd never touched a handgun and only plinked a few times with a .22 rifle. I took home the shooting trophy over a half-dozen ex-Marines. Oops, sorry Marines, they're always Marines, just not active duty.

But I'll agree that shooting a stationary well-lit paper target is a lot different than a dark moving target that might shoot back.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Are more and more people using Tasers for self-defense? Are they effective in that role? Whaddya do when they wake up ?

 

[haha]

Are more and more people using Tasers for self-defense? Are they effective in that role? Whaddya do when they wake up ?

Shoot 'em. Way easier to hit that way.

Ha

 

[Notmuchlonger]

YouTube - Dont Tase Me Bro


1:56 mark

 

[Milton]

I enjoy target shooting and have always liked guns (especially five-screw S&Ws). But the idea of keeping a loaded firearm stashed to guard against a 'home invasion' or (worse) actually lugging one around in a holster for 'protection', strikes me as dangerous and ridiculously paranoid.

If there is a real chance of being attacked, do what razztazz says and "just move to a better place where that crap is less likely to happen".

 

[HFWR]

If there is a real chance of being attacked, do what razztazz says and "just move to a better place where that crap is less likely to happen".

That's what I did. Bought a modest home in a well-to-do suburb full of McMansions...

 

[mathjak107]

just a warning... a shotgun for self defense in close quarters is not the best choice. at very short range the shot barley spreads more than an inch or 2 under 7 ft or so which is pretty much the max distance for 90% of self defense situations. that does require aiming not just spray and pray. the other issue is any long arm in close quarters is extremely easy to grab and leverage away from you.

i would never recommend anything less than 00 buck shot for stopping power , never #8 bird shot its to easly deflected and deformed as well as not enough penetrating power to stop reliably . you cant even leagly use it on a turkey in most states. . 00 is the size of a .32 caliber round. a bunch of those flying around your house isnt such a great idea either.....

best choice a .40 or .45 with either magsafe or glasser safety rounds.. according to marshall and snow .357 magnum has best stopping power against humans

 

[mathjak107]

other calibers like 9mm or 38 dont have the stopping power of the larger slower calibers.. 9mm is basically a high speed over penetrating round that is loved by the military because it has good wounding characteristics as the wounded tax your enemy resources and slows them down ....directly the opposite of what one needs for stopping a drunk or drug crazed attacker.

for more on stopping power read the research and works of marshall and snow.

its not the wound that stops the bad guy its all about the round staying contained in the target and disapating its energy disrupting the nervous system. 9mm and .38 cant do this reliably even with hollow points....

in combat training we are taught even hitting someone dead center in the heart will allow them to live long enough to cover 20ft and hack you to death .. only hope is to either disrupt the nervous syatem , or aim for the pelvic area so if you shatter the pelvic bone it may make it impossible for the attacker to continue.

 

[kumquat]

just a warning... a shotgun for self defense in close quarters is not the best choice.

Way back in my youth, I walked into a store that was being robbed. Bad guy pointed a 12 gauge at me and said 'get on the floor'. I've never seen a hole bigger than the bore of that 12 gauge. There must be an intimidation factor in those things, I'd have obeyed even if I was packing a Mat Dillon 45.

 

[OAG]

I will continue to use my PPK 32 - It has sentimental value as it was donated to me by a NVA Lieutenant many years ago. I do not know where he got it but it dates to WWII (Germany). Works great and is small enough to carry in a pocket.

 

[youbet]

Despite the fact that I have over a dozen guns in the house, none are available for quick self defense. They're all locked away where grandkids or whoever can't get at 'em. I'm very, very careful about that. And DW would never use a gun anyway. But I do keep my bear pepper spray containers that accompany us on camping trips handy. They dispense under more pressure and much more volume than the sprays intended for use on humans and I think would slow a human intruder down for a little bit.

Yeah, I know I won't be able to hit a gopher between the eyes at 300 yds like I could with my 22-250 Remington model 700. But we're talking about close quarters, probably in the dark and am only looking for a few seconds to get myself and DW the hell out of there.

 

[mathjak107]

good luck indoors as your blinded too. or maybe it will have more of an effect on you then the bad guy leaving you blinded... soooo many times on cops you see them spray perps and its like nothing. the attack continues.

its funny how people have such perceptions about self defence and what works and how bad guys will run at the sound of racking a gun, or how they will just fall down and stop attacking you if hit with a small caliber round or how they envision a shotgun will work at very short distances..... the movies and tv really did a number on us and its quite far from reality.


to learn the real deal check out the books and studies wriiten by combat trainer and expert massad ayoub . massad is the foremost authority and trainer for most law enforcement agencys in the country. he serves as the most popular firearms and self defence expert witness in the country. with both experience and countless accounts and studies of actual attacks, breakins, car jackings, etc he has a great book called the truth about self protection. i suggest anyone with an interest in getting away from the folk lure and actually learning pick up any of his books.

The Truth About Self Protection, Massad Ayoob

 

[mathjak107]

I will continue to use my PPK 32 - It has sentimental value as it was donated to me by a NVA Lieutenant many years ago. I do not know where he got it but it dates to WWII (Germany). Works great and is small enough to carry in a pocket.

although the caliber leaves much to be desired the ppk has always been a little star ever since james bond made it popular.... at one time the wait for a new one was rediculious as it was in demand.

 

[mathjak107]

a nice carry gun that fits in your pocket is something along the lines of the hammerless s&w 640 revolver. although again .38 for self defence is a bit weak the fact that it fits nicely in a pocket or robe and can fire from a pocket without jamming as the hammer of the revolver is encased inside is very nice to be able to do,...try that with a semi-auto and see if you can get off more than 1 round without a jam as the slide trys to go back.

one night i heard a banging at my front door . the person never answered back each time i asked who it is.. i couldnt really see thru the peephole so i slipped on a robe, put the 640 in my pocket and opened the door.


it turned out to be a non english speaking guy who was at the right house but wrong block..all our houses look the same as they were attached town houses. .. he never was the wiser that he had a gun trained on him when i opened the door.

 

[LeatherneckPA]

I don't have much respect for pepper spray anymore. Every year I inundate my Disturbance Control Team with it so they get used to it, and more importantly so they understand that they CAN still function and fight despite it.

This year's course was to take a direct face spray, walk a 32' crooked balance beam (4x4's on the ground), run 50 yards, enter the building, search and subdue the "inmate" and then escort him from the building. THEN they could go get the spray washed out of their face and eyes. As team leader for both teams I got sprayed two days in a row. Everybody completed the course, and now we all pray we don't have to rely on pepper spray. But around the inmates all the guys talk about is how bad it hurts and how debilitating it is. A little psych warfare, so to speak.

 

[Milton]

I will continue to use my PPK 32 - It has sentimental value as it was donated to me by a NVA Lieutenant many years ago. I do not know where he got it but it dates to WWII (Germany). Works great and is small enough to carry in a pocket.

I have two, both ex-German police. Nice little guns, and better sights than those on my old Savage.

 

[nphx]

Pistoleros. Just saying: Sig Sauer 225, got one today from the linked source, outstanding. Got the $299 version, $319 in my hands. Happiness is a warm gun. Scope it out.

Dan's Sporting Goods Firearms Page

Hmmm - always wanted to have one handy at the other end of the house.... thanks for the link

 

[calmloki]

Hmmm - always wanted to have one handy at the other end of the house.... thanks for the link

Word is that the internals on them all are outstanding, difference is mostly holster wear in the two grades - so if you just want a shooter save the $40 and get the $259 version.

 

[dex]

Take a look at this new gun - looks good for cc. One thing about cc is that it has to be easy to carry. I have a glock 26 th at is a great 9mm but even that gun is a bit much to carry. A lot of people talk about stopping power. A key aspect is to get out of the situation ASAP. So first you need to have a gun with you; then you need to be accurate with it. The final part is stopping power.

The Ruger LCP™ - Specifications

 

[youbet]

good luck indoors as your blinded too. or maybe it will have more of an effect on you then the bad guy leaving you blinded... soooo many times on cops you see them spray perps and its like nothing. the attack continues.

I wouldn't think for a minute that a dose of pepper spray would be as effective as a 12 guage blast to the face at close range...... but again, I frequently have little kids in the house and therefore my guns are well secured with ammo and guns locked in separate locations. At least 2 -3 mins to get a gun out, get ammo and load. And I don't think I could expect DW to use a gun even if we had them stashed, loaded and ready, around the house.

 

[youbet]

I don't have much respect for pepper spray anymore.

It's my compromise between having guns instantly accessible and located in several locations in the house and having nothing. If there was something going on, a disturbance in the neighborhood, riots in the streets, I'd unlock and load up, probably a 2 - 3 minute undertaking the way I have things secured now. For 24 x 7 instant availability, I just can't get myself comfortable with readily accessible, loaded guns.

In your application, I think you're looking to subdue folks. I'm just looking for a few seconds or so to get us out of there in the event we were totally surprised by an intruder.

BTW, I'm a long time registered gun owner, a hunter, a reloader and a supporter of gun ownership rights. I just don't support instant availability of firearms in homes frequented by small children.

 

[Milton]

BTW, I'm a long time registered gun owner, a hunter, a reloader and a supporter of gun ownership rights. I just don't support instant availability of firearms in homes frequented by small children.

I don't hunt or reload, but otherwise: "ditto".

 

[Joseph (Joe) Towne]

Loud & Loaded...

I keep one gun in my home (loaded) -- in a locked, 4-button combination locked safe, easily accessible, if needed. My choice in the Ruger "Alaskan" Super Nighthawk - 2" barrel w/a magnum load. Very innacurate, unless you have it pressed against your target, but the noise will make the toughest of the tuff, drop-trou and run. I don't want to kill anything, but I have nothing against scaring the living-hell out of something .