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Old 07-02-2016, 04:19 PM   #141
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Tesla autopilots only work on highways, and cannot navigate city streets, or shopping mall parking lots. Google cars are much more advanced, and they cannot really do that either.
This is partly wrong. As you can see here, the car is able to drive on 2 lane roads just fine.

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Old 07-02-2016, 04:22 PM   #142
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But how many city streets (except if they have bike lanes) have a white strip on the side? Let alone how many residential streets have any striping at all. The issue of striping depends on the speed limits involved. If you get above 55 I suspect you find full striping but 25 to 35 mph no striping.
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Old 07-02-2016, 04:28 PM   #143
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But how many city streets (except if they have bike lanes) have a white strip on the side? Let alone how many residential streets have any striping at all. The issue of striping depends on the speed limits involved. If you get above 55 I suspect you find full striping but 25 to 35 mph no striping.
Apparantly it's not much of an issue with the release of 7.1 (software). It does have a limitation in that you can only program it to exceed the speed limit by 5 MPH.

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In the video, we can see the Model S cruising at 45 mph after passing the 40 mph speed limit sign and only slowing down to pass a cyclist, which is impressive on its own.

Interestingly, the Model S is able to stay in the right lane while planning its path without lane markings.
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Old 07-02-2016, 04:29 PM   #144
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This is partly wrong. As you can see here, the car is able to drive on 2 lane roads just fine, as long as they are marked...
What I meant was that the autopilot is still not as good as the human brain which can tell where the car should be, based on his vision of other cues such as the road shoulder, the grass growing by the sides of the road, etc...

Can you drive where there are no clear lane markings? I can. Heck, I can even drive on narrow one-lane roads in Hawaii with no shoulders and grass growing high right next to the asphalt, and the drivers have to wait for their turn to go through a narrow section.
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Old 07-02-2016, 04:33 PM   #145
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What I meant was that the autopilot is still not as good as the human brain which can tell where the car should be, based on his vision of other cues such as the road shoulder, the grass growing by the sides of the road, etc...

Can you drive where there are no clear lane markings? I can. Heck, I can even drive on narrow one-lane roads in Hawaii, where the drivers have to wait for their turn to go through a narrow section.
I am not debating what is better, the car or the human driver. I agree with you that the human (for now) is indeed the better performer. BUT...you said that the car couldn't 'autopilot' on unmarked roads, and that is just not true.
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Old 07-02-2016, 04:40 PM   #146
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I am not debating what is better, the car or the human driver. I agree with you that the human (for now) is indeed the better performer. BUT...you said that the car couldn't 'autopilot' on unmarked roads, and that is just not true.
No! Not for 130 million miles without screwing up, as Tesla claims.
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Old 07-02-2016, 04:41 PM   #147
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Even at night... in all conditions?

At least you are right until you are not.....

BTW, I felt the same way as you.... but have had it proven to me twice that I was wrong... lucky for me I did not change lanes...
When a vehicle approaches it is visible in the rear view mirror first, then both the rear view and side mirror, and then in both the side mirror and my peripheral vision. At no point is another vehicle ever out of my sight.

I have demonstrated this to several people by adjusting their mirrors and then walking toward their car from behind while they sit in the driver's seat. At no point do they lose sight of me. If you lost sight of a vehicle, then your mirrors must have been adjusted differently than mine.
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Old 07-02-2016, 04:57 PM   #148
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I am still trying to portray how I feel about the current "autopilot" technology.

Yes, they are doing things that are truly impressive. But that does not mean that their autopilot is yet what I can trust my life on. If you showed me a 5-yr old baby who could drive, I would be very impressed. That does not mean I would be willing to use him as my chauffeur.

Let's use another analogy. I taught my children to drive. It was a hell of a scary experience, and one I do not wish to repeat. I constantly worried if they saw the car coming, or if they saw the stop sign, or knew to yield to the car with the right-of-way. With the current autopilot, it would be the same way. If I have to remain fully alert, ready to take over at any time, then how is it going to help me? I would be much more relaxed to drive myself, taking all the safety precautions that I usually do.

How can Elon Musk say that his autopilot is safer than the ordinary driver, yet requires the user to stay alert all the time to catch the hiccup and ready to take over? Is he a politician, talking out of both sides of his mouth?

I will use an autopilot when I am convinced that it is safer than ME, and not a texting teenager who has a close call every 10 miles.
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Old 07-02-2016, 05:06 PM   #149
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No! Not for 130 million miles without screwing up, as Tesla claims.
But isn't it fair to say (and all Tesla is saying) that the combination of the driver and Tesla's driver assist has resulted in lower than average deaths?

They aren't saying it could drive a safe 130 million miles w/o any driver intervention.

I suspect there is still spin in that. It should be compared to fatality rates of similar profile vehicles (luxury cars) that do not have these features.

And again, humans have plenty of screw ups that don't result in a fatality or even an accident (just a very scary near-miss).

I cross-posted, so an quick edit/add:

Quote:
How can Elon Musk say that his autopilot is safer than the ordinary driver, yet requires the user to stay alert all the time to catch the hiccup and ready to take over? Is he a politician, talking out of both sides of his mouth?
But, if you stay alert and the car is constantly monitoring you, it's a bit like having a co-pilot, both watching out and ready to take over if the other misses something. That could be safer. But not if each of them figures the other will deal with it, and they BOTH miss something (like the side of an 18 wheeler!).

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Old 07-02-2016, 05:11 PM   #150
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The enhanced safety measures could be implemented with blindspot detection, lane-deviation warning, adaptive cruise control, etc... It did not have to be a "false" autopilot not ready for its time, that lured the driver into watching DVD, texting, or dozing off.
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Old 07-02-2016, 06:13 PM   #151
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The enhanced safety measures could be implemented with blindspot detection, lane-deviation warning, adaptive cruise control, etc... It did not have to be a "false" autopilot not ready for its time, that lured the driver into watching DVD, texting, or dozing off.
I agree with that. I haven't watched the Tesla promos, but the end result is that some people seem encouraged to let the car take over, rather than think of this as an 'assist', and that's a problem.

I'll try to catch the Tesla promo info later, but it does seem they need to change their approach towards this.

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Old 07-02-2016, 09:45 PM   #152
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I agree with that. I haven't watched the Tesla promos, but the end result is that some people seem encouraged to let the car take over, rather than think of this as an 'assist', and that's a problem.

I'll try to catch the Tesla promo info later, but it does seem they need to change their approach towards this.

-ERD50
I think you're right.

Having now driven many miles with the assist on its VERY easy and tempting to treat it as self driving.

I think Tesla is pretty good at preventing this. If you don't touch the wheel for a few minutes it starts warning you aggressively and then turns off.

At the sales center they're very specific on this.

As a driver I'm lazy and WANT it to be self driving when it isn't so I think it'll be hard to overcome.

That said when it's stop and go traffic I think it's a better driver than I am. In high speed highway driving it's more dangerous because of the false security. Numerous situations come up it can't deal with... obstacles in the road... narrow side barriers crappy painted lines, steep hills and so on. I watch it the whole time... but I can be more "passive" and thus I'm less tired after an hour or two of driving.

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Old 07-02-2016, 09:49 PM   #153
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The enhanced safety measures could be implemented with blindspot detection, lane-deviation warning, adaptive cruise control, etc... It did not have to be a "false" autopilot not ready for its time, that lured the driver into watching DVD, texting, or dozing off.
Agreed, and add that all of these features first shake the steering wheel or sound a buzzer or put a message on a screen in the middle of the instrument panel or a combination of them. To see details you can typically download the owners manual for cars before buying them, also read the included warnings. It should be noted that car manuals are now over 500 pages in length. I found this piece in the verge that quotes the Tesla's owners manual http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/30/12...gs-fatal-crash
and to quote the sections: "
Warning: Do not depend on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to adequately and appropriately slow down Model S. Always watch the road in front of you and stay prepared to brake at all times. Traffic-Aware Cruise Control does not eliminate the need to apply the brakes as needed, even at slow speeds.
Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control can not detect all objects and may not detect a stationary vehicle or other object in the lane of travel. There may be situations in which Traffic-Aware Cruise Control does not detect a vehicle, bicycle, or pedestrian. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to avoid a collision can result in serious injury or death.
Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may react to vehicles or objects that either do not exist or are not in the lane of travel, causing Model S to slow down unnecessarily or inappropriately.
Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may misjudge the distance from a vehicle ahead. Always watch the road in front of you. It is the driver's responsibility to maintain a safe distance from a vehicle ahead of you.
Warning: When you enable Traffic-Aware Cruise Control in a situation where you are closely following the vehicle in front of you, Model S may apply the brakes to maintain the selected distance.
Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control has limited deceleration ability and may be unable to apply enough braking to avoid a collision if a vehicle in front slows suddenly, or if a vehicle enters your driving lane in front of you. Never depend on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to slow down the vehicle enough to prevent a collision. Always keep your eyes on the road when driving and be prepared to take corrective action as needed. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to slow the vehicle down enough to prevent a collision can result in serious injury or death.
Warning: Driving downhill can increase driving speed, causing Model S to exceed your set speed. Hills can also make it more difficult for Model S to slow down enough to maintain the chosen following distance from the vehicle ahead.
Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may occasionally brake Model S when not required based on the distance from a vehicle ahead. This can be caused by vehicles in adjacent lanes (especially on curves), or by stationary objects."
and a second section:
"
Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is particularly unlikely to operate as intended in the following types of situations:
  • The road has sharp curves.
  • Visibility is poor (due to heavy rain, snow, fog, etc.).
  • Bright light (oncoming headlights or direct sunlight) is interfering with the camera's view.
  • The radar sensor in the center of the front grill is obstructed (dirty, covered, etc.).
  • The windshield area in the camera's field of view is obstructed (fogged over, dirty, covered by a sticker, etc.).
Caution: If your Model S is equipped with Traffic-Aware Cruise Control, you must take your vehicle to Tesla Service if a windshield replacement is needed. Failure to do so can cause Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to malfunction.
Warning: Many unforeseen circumstances can impair the operation of Traffic-Aware Cruise Control. Always keep this in mind and remember that as a result, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may not slow down or may brake or accelerate Model S inappropriately. Always drive attentively and be prepared to take immediate action.
Warning: Traffic-aware cruise control may not brake/decelerate for stationary vehicles, especially in situations when you are driving over 50 mph (80 km/h) and a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary vehicle or object is in front of you instead. Always pay attention to the road ahead and stay prepared to take immediate corrective action. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to avoid a collision can result in serious injury or death.
"
So it would appear that the driver was not following the owners manual instructions.

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Old 07-02-2016, 11:19 PM   #154
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Thanks to meierlde for posting the above info. These caveats are about what I expected.

That's a far cry from a truly autonomous autopilot that the public may perceive that the Tesla is capable of. People who do not heed the above warnings must not value their life highly, nor that of innocent bystanders.
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Old 07-02-2016, 11:56 PM   #155
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When a vehicle approaches it is visible in the rear view mirror first, then both the rear view and side mirror, and then in both the side mirror and my peripheral vision. At no point is another vehicle ever out of my sight.

I have demonstrated this to several people by adjusting their mirrors and then walking toward their car from behind while they sit in the driver's seat. At no point do they lose sight of me. If you lost sight of a vehicle, then your mirrors must have been adjusted differently than mine.
I know we are in the middle of another thread... but if you read my description of how it happened to me.... there never was a time when the vehicle approached me from behind.... I merged onto a highway from another highway and had to concentrate on a driver in front of me as they seemed to want to slow down or stop... the first time I could look at the other two lanes the other vehicle was already IN my blind spot... doing the same speed as me... he was far enough up that his headlights did not show in my side mirrors, but not enough that I could see him out of the passenger window.... and he was black which blended in with the night...

As I said, it has worked for you until it does not... and as I also said, I was a believer that you could eliminate the blind spot but was proved wrong... lucky for me I did not change lanes as I had a feeling that all was not clear... IOW, I could not SEE that the lane was empty like I wanted to....
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Old 07-03-2016, 08:06 AM   #156
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The 130 million miles statistics is just a spin by the company, who is acting more and more like politicians. It's bull ****. Do not fall for it.
Musk is a HUGE personality, and a master of spin. Smart dude, but also a smart marketeer.

He not only spins his products, he becomes the leader of spinning whole industries.
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Old 07-03-2016, 08:17 AM   #157
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People who do not heed the above warnings must not value their life highly, nor that of innocent bystanders.

Just like most drivers of non-autonomous vehicles...
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Old 07-03-2016, 08:54 AM   #158
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... I found this piece in the verge that quotes the Tesla's owners manual Tesla‚€™s own Autopilot warnings outlined deadly crash scenario | The Verge
and to quote the sections: "
Warning: Warning: Warning: .....

So it would appear that the driver was not following the owners manual instructions.
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Thanks to meierlde for posting the above info. These caveats are about what I expected.

That's a far cry from a truly autonomous autopilot that the public may perceive that the Tesla is capable of. People who do not heed the above warnings must not value their life highly, nor that of innocent bystanders.
Yes, the caveats are there, but we also have human nature at work. Look at the feedback from this poster who is an actual Tesla driver, and appears to be cautious and approach this with care, yet... (bold mine)

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....
Having now driven many miles with the assist on its VERY easy and tempting to treat it as self driving.

...

As a driver I'm lazy and WANT it to be self driving when it isn't so I think it'll be hard to overcome. ...
And many other drivers will be more casual about this. That is why I wish we'd focus on all the warning/assist features plus additional tests to assure the driver is paying attention (eye movement scans, head movement scans in addition to steering wheel input).

I recall in Driver's Ed, after we were on a highway for a while, the instructor blocked my rear view mirror with his notebook, and said "Quick, tell me the color of the car behind us". It was a test if I had 'situational awareness.' These smart systems could do that, every once in while, ask the driver something about the environment. Keep them involved.

That should be the norm until these systems can take over w/o all the caveats, not before.

-ERD50
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Old 07-03-2016, 09:45 AM   #159
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Yes, the caveats are there, but we also have human nature at work. Look at the feedback from this poster who is an actual Tesla driver, and appears to be cautious and approach this with care, yet... (bold mine)



And many other drivers will be more casual about this. That is why I wish we'd focus on all the warning/assist features plus additional tests to assure the driver is paying attention (eye movement scans, head movement scans in addition to steering wheel input).

I recall in Driver's Ed, after we were on a highway for a while, the instructor blocked my rear view mirror with his notebook, and said "Quick, tell me the color of the car behind us". It was a test if I had 'situational awareness.' These smart systems could do that, every once in while, ask the driver something about the environment. Keep them involved.

That should be the norm until these systems can take over w/o all the caveats, not before.

-ERD50
Yup.
No one reads manuals and less than no one follows directions.

Most people don't eat healthy and get fat, heart disease, etc.

Most people don't get annual checkups and risk catching things late... like cancer.

Most people text/use phone while driving and risk getting killed (or killing someone else).

And on and on.

It's just another piece of technology that adds convenience and will be abused.

What matters to me that in aggregate it is safer than not having it. That has yet to be seen but I'm fairly sure it will prove to be true especially as it improves with time.

I suspect over the next 20-30 years you'll see vehicles become more and more networked and collisions will drop substantially. Of course things like hacking risk will increase but the % of people dying in accidents will continue to drop imo.

I see my model X as a piece of beta software/hardware so I'm pretty careful.

Actually more dangerous than auto drive are the doors.

The button on top of they key closes them all and I've accidentally hit it many times. I've closed the door on my wife while she's putting in the kids. Closed it on my father in laws hand and smacked myself in the head at least 3 times .

None of that had caused injury because they sense obstacles and stop.. but if the door closes on you under the right circumstances (holding a knife, little babies, near a cliff) I could imagine some not so funny Wil e coyote scenarios...

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Old 07-03-2016, 11:19 AM   #160
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Yes, the caveats are there, but we also have human nature at work. Look at the feedback from this poster who is an actual Tesla driver, and appears to be cautious and approach this with care, yet... (bold mine)



And many other drivers will be more casual about this. That is why I wish we'd focus on all the warning/assist features plus additional tests to assure the driver is paying attention (eye movement scans, head movement scans in addition to steering wheel input).

I recall in Driver's Ed, after we were on a highway for a while, the instructor blocked my rear view mirror with his notebook, and said "Quick, tell me the color of the car behind us". It was a test if I had 'situational awareness.' These smart systems could do that, every once in while, ask the driver something about the environment. Keep them involved.

That should be the norm until these systems can take over w/o all the caveats, not before.

-ERD50
I would have told the instructor to screw it... I do not care what color the car behind is, I just care IF there is a car and what it is doing....

Even today I do not look long enough, nor is my brain programmed to process the color... the only time I actually look is when stopped because my DW has this game called 'punch buggy' and I want a leg up when I can actually pay attention....
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