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View Poll Results: Would you use a gun to protect yourself and your family?
Yes, I would shoot to kill 47 90.38%
No, I would never use a gun 5 9.62%
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-04-2005, 07:35 PM   #21
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbykur
...would you use a kitchen knife to defend yourself and/or family in a life threatening situation?
I would use a knife if I had to, but,

1) I would have to get a lot closer to my potential killer with a knife than I would with a gun, so there would be more risk to me.

2) It would probably take a lot longer to kill the guy, unless I hit his heart.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-04-2005, 08:23 PM   #22
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
That's right Tim ... and sometimes people need such a tool. Firearms are tools, and they are tools with which most people can be proficient, and safe.
I'm undecided about that. Don't lump me in with the guns-are-always-bad crowd. I was simply explaining to oldbykur how a kitchen knife is very different from a gun. I didn't make any statement on whether other people should, or should be allowed to, own one.

The thing about guns is that they make it very easy to kill somebody. That can be good when killing the person is justfied (like in self defense) but it can be bad when it's not (like by accident, or in anger). There are other tools for which that is true (eg. cars) but they are primarily designed for something very different (transportation). I'm following the gun threads with interest and I think it's possible that some day I will own a gun.

Tim
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-04-2005, 09:52 PM   #23
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Re: Self Protection

I would not live in a state where I could not legally carry a concealed weapon! Fortunately that list is getting smaller.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-04-2005, 10:08 PM   #24
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
razztazz, can't help you if it doesn't make sense already ... I'm assuming you're going down the "only police should have guns" debate
Dead wrong Charles. Too much assumin' going on. I am in favor of NOT JUST police and criminals having guns. You;'d have concluded that if you had seen my post on teh othe related topic board. The person I was addressingsaid they were a cop or ex cop or something with all the "special training" as if they were attempting some special justification or qualification. So I threw in the question about "regular" people. But feel free to flip me off any time
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 12:04 AM   #25
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Re: Self Protection

My apologies ... too used to too many silly debates, and you're right ... assumed incorrectly. Did note your other post, and realized I jumped too soon. No flip intended. Take care.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 01:32 AM   #26
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Re: Self Protection

I haven't added any smilies in a while. Maybe we need a flip-off smiley? I know I've seen them around....
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 03:06 AM   #27
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by astromeria
If a gun magically appeared in my hand when I needed to save a life, I think I could do something with it (not that I know how-). But the thought of having a gun in my home....I think it would prey on my mind, like the telltale heart or the ring of power. It would disturb my sense of safety rather than enhance it.
I understand what you are saying. I think in some ways I have the opposite relationship to guns that you do. I have a couple in my home (recently sold a couple), but I tend to have the same relationship to them that I do to a Makita drill. I don't use them often, and chide myself for not paying them the amount of attention they need to remain in top condition. Rather than a ring of power, to me they are another staff of indolence--one more reminder of something I'll have more time for in the future, after I FI.

However, in all honesty, I'd rather have a couple of them (guns and drills!) around than not. But for me it revolves around the fact that I have traditionally lived in places where, if the barge or plane doesn't come, then you could be on your own for power and food. In an environment like that, a gun really helps out in the food department, a rifle or shotgun that is.

I'm not against guns at all. They have a purpose. I just don't personally believe having that purpose be "convenience for killing each other in urban areas" is in the best interest of our society. For this reason, the notion of registration, and controlled access to guns, especially handguns, doesn't bother me. I'm not under any illusion that somehow, armed citizens with spears will successfully go against Mussolini's tanks. And I certainly don't buy the notion that more people packing concealed weapons results in anything but a more dangerous world.

The same people who say they don't trust the government enough to register their guns apparantly trust them enough to go through all the checks for a concealed weapon permit, and yet trust the government NOT to give the permit to those who should not have them. Well, do ya trust them or not?? Why not ignore deer tags and poach as a matter of principle? When you get deer tags, aren't you basically telling the government you have a gun and intend to use it? How much do you think the government doesn't already know about you, if they choose to look? They have a pretty good budget these days to look, too.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 07:05 AM   #28
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Re: Self Protection

Interesting thoughts about aiming to disable and discerning the intent of the intruder at the time one will bring their hypothetical gun to bear.

Those deliberations at the time of crisis will settle the matter one way or the other.

And if your sole option is to rely on the police, you've wagered the largest bet you'll ever place on assuming that you can reach them and that they can respond in time.

I keep a shotgun with an appropriate length barrel.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 07:58 AM   #29
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Re: Self Protection

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Originally Posted by pjdaddy
Interesting thoughts about aiming to disable and discerning the intent of the intruder at the time one will bring their hypothetical gun to bear.
I would always assume that the intent of an intruder is to kill me. With that assumption predetermined, I would always know how to act.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 08:03 AM   #30
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Re: Self Protection

Yes, I would use guns, and yes I would shoot to kill. As I mentioned in my other post, the purpose of the gun is to save DW and my "a**". It's an insurance that brings peace of mind to me. I can and would call 911, given the time, with no expectation that the cops would show up soon. In a New Orleans type situation, there's no one coming, and you had better rely upon yourself for protection.

I don't hanker for any situation whereby I would be required to use a gun, but would not hesitate to use it. In fact, hesitation is what will get you killed.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 08:11 AM   #31
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Re: Self Protection

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CHARLES: My apologies ... too used to too many silly debates, and you're right ... assumed incorrectly. Did note your other post, and realized I jumped too soon. No flip intended. Take care.
T'is OK Charles. And I'll apologize for being too terse. But that is exactly why I siad. "Don't read too much into my question" I couldnt see any way to ask it without setting off the "knee jerkers" so I put a "yellow caution flag" on it


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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 08:20 AM   #32
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Re: Self Protection

razztazz, sorry for the delay getting back to your question (We had fireworks in my town last night and, being the boss, I had to be there -- tough job...). You asked;

"How do you feel about "regular " people *having ready access to firearms, as a matter of course, living just anywhere?"

To avoid getting too deeply into the "gun debate" I'll have to keep this answer simple. If you are comfortable with the idea of owning a firearm, taking the time to learn how to use it properly, and are a responsible person, I think it a wise thing to do. I rely on my empirical experiences in life and the fact that a handgun has saved my bacon on several occasions. Understand, my nature is not that of an aggressive or violent person. I avoid going into places likely to get me in trouble. It's just that there are lots of predators out there, and society seems to be broken down into sheep, wolves and sheep dogs. Guess I've been a sheep dog a long time now.

Hope I've answered your question.

Rich
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 08:41 AM   #33
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
razztazz, sorry for the delay getting back to your question (We had fireworks in my town last night and, being the boss, I had to be there -- tough job...). You asked;

"How do you feel about "regular " people having ready access to firearms, as a matter of course, living just anywhere?"

To avoid getting too deeply into the "gun debate" I'll have to keep this answer simple. If you are comfortable with the idea of owning a firearm, taking the time to learn how to use it properly, and are a responsible person, I think it a wise thing to do. I rely on my empirical experiences in life and the fact that a handgun has saved my bacon on several occasions. Understand, my nature is not that of an aggressive or violent person. I avoid going into places likely to get me in trouble. It's just that there are lots of predators out there, and society seems to be broken down into sheep, wolves and sheep dogs. Guess I've been a sheep dog a long time now.

Hope I've answered your question.Rich

That is exactly my position. (More or less) ;-) Yes, if youre gonna own it, learn it. Especially if it's not a revolver. Every semi-auto is just a little bit different and WILL surprise you if you don't get up to speed on it. In fact I am one of those strange people who is more in favoiur of a waiting period than INSTA CHECKING. I dont like the idea of data basing of gun owners. But making somebody wait 48 hours or something just migt cool off a "passionate" situation IF these things even work at all.

As for me... If I ever find myself saying "I need to go to the drug store but it's pretty dangerous out there. I better get a gun" Rather than buying a gun I'll just more to a better neighborhood. I feel safe at home so I don't own a gun now. But like I said before, all that is beside the point.

I find them somewhat "dangerous" to have around from a storage stand point. I worry too much about the 99.99999991/2% of life than I do the possibility of total break down of society"

If I am home and need to shoot somebody..OK, I'm hip. I believ that is LEGAL even in NY and Massachusetts, belive it or not. But My real concern is what if I am NOT home and I get burglarized? Dont want anybody finding it. OR what if there is a storm, twister, flood whatever and my stuff is totalled, burried, scattered? Oh oh! NOW were is
it? Those things *ARE* expensive ya know! And somebody 5 yrs form now robs a bank in Kansas City with it! But the whole GUN owning Concept/self defense/shotgun in the closet / shoot the bastard" etc angle, THAT is no issue for me.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 09:40 AM   #34
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Re: Self Protection

I liked what Bosco said about guns. I bought a pistol after our dog died in the kitchen one year. He went through serious convulsions on the floor at about 2AM. Sad all the way around.

I have no illusions about my skill with guns. I'll never be at the ready to put someone down that is sneaking around my home. I also have no illusions that a burglar is after me or my wife to kill us. They want money or goods. They can have them. If disorder in the city arises, I have no illusions that I can face down five looters with a pistol or a sawed-off shotgun. I don't have the skill or training to even think about it. In fact there is a good chance if one of those types sees my gun he will use his gun first. Looters and theives aren't idiots, at least about guns.

I find the idea of training and praticing for such an apocalyptic event absurd for me. My older uncle does this, obsessing on his choice of weapons, practicing his quick draw, and worrying about his choice of loads and bullets. I suspect if something bad happens though he will probably die in the first five or ten seconds of the event--but maybe not. At his age his heart may not hold out long either. He spends many hours each month pouring over gun magazines and alternative tactics and strategy. His choice. I don't have any problem with the hobby part. It's sad for me to see the obsession/fear/bravado part in him. But, it makes him feel more secure somehow. That has its own value for him and my aunt.

I had a shot gun and .22 rifle that I inherited from my father. A couple years ago, I gave them to my brother who has kids so that they could enjoy the woods in a different way and learn how guns work. I enjoyed hunting in my youth. Now I think the woods and nature are too dangerous during hunting season. And not because of the deer and bears.

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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 11:07 AM   #35
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Re: Self Protection

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I suspect if something bad happens though he will probably die in the first five or ten seconds of the event--but maybe not. At his age his heart may not hold out long either.
This is a good point. Thats why I dont fret over the Apocalypse crap. If it happens at most ALL you'll need is a pistol, or shotgun, or just some basic protection. AND don't go looking for trouble. Avoid it! Just like in REAL LIFE!


Speaking of real life....take me for instance. Yrs ago I was actually shot at twice on the streets near my home. Later as an adult had to live in some very, shall we say, unappealling places. Never occurred to me to own a gun., When I shoot at the range I actually LIKE renting a different one each time

Now, I am no longer young, no longer fast, no longer strong enough to even consider kicking 1 guy in the balls while I beat up the other one. I am only 48 but that ain't 28 and I have some medical problems interfering with my "robustness" and ability to beat up coked-up 20 yrs old desperados.

Why should I be a sitting-f***ing duck in the event of an emergency? In my own home. Not on the streets.

Tasers might be nice but they don't let civilians own them. I could use my father's old "night stick". I know some of the "take-down" techniques, but inside.....? at night? Swinging that stick? Close enough for the bad guys to close on me? And besides that is a very physical endevor anyway. I dont want to jeopardize MY health trying to be nice to the bad guy by just clubbing him when I can shoot him far away.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 10:19 PM   #36
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbykur
I answered "Yes" but it would be easier to answer if your question was a bit more specific. Using the gun to protect property (food, money, etc.) is personally a much more diificult decision than using it to protect life.

Edit: Should have read your question more carefully. You clearly said, "trying to break the door down to kill you and your family ..."
Well, I don't know. Under the conditions in New Orleans, your property is your life once removed. What if the person were stealing your car? Either that scum bag gets to evacuate and live, or you and your kids get to. Same with food and water.

This is the problem with trying to separate protection of property from protection of life. Under stressed conditions, life may require property to survive.

Ha
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 10:27 PM   #37
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Re: Self Protection

This question has no more relevance to me than the question raised several weeks back about whether you would spend a night with someone for $1M. The odds of me needing to shoot someone to same my life or protect my family are nearly zilch. I'm not going to spend a lot of time mulling that kind of thing over.

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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 10:35 PM   #38
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Re: Self Protection

I sure don't want to get into a disagreement with you, but don't the events of this last week make you wonder about that statement?

Or how about situations faced by Korean shopkeepers in the last South LA round?

Or maybe you are saying that as an affluent person living near but not too near possible human messes you are likely immune?

Ha
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 10:45 PM   #39
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
I sure don't want to get into a disagreement with you, but don't the events of this last week make you wonder about that statement?

Or how about situations faced by Korean shopkeepers in the last South LA round?

Or maybe you are saying that as an affluent person living near but not too near possible human messes you are likely immune?

Ha
No. Anecdotal stories don't change the statistics. Look at the total experience of this board: http://early-retirement.org/forums/i...p?topic=4103.0

Over 38 people living in North America today -- probably well over 1000 years of living experience. Not one has ever had an occasion when shooting a gun at someone would have helped. And even though I didn't ask the question in that poll, several pointed out experiences where gun ownership cost innocent people their lives or health.

As far as I can tell, buying a gun to protect you from bad people is about the same as buying lottery tickets -- but lottery tickets that have a greater chance of exploding than winning.

I don't mind if someone wants to own a gun. I don't mind if they actually believe it makes them safer. . . just like I don't mind if someone buys lottery tickets each week because they think they might win. But I can't see any reason to believe that owning a gun is likely to make me safer. And I don't buy lottery tickets either.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-05-2005, 11:45 PM   #40
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by razztazz
Tasers might be nice but they don't let civilians own them.
Sure they do, although I believe you're limited to 15' or so.
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