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View Poll Results: Would you use a gun to protect yourself and your family?
Yes, I would shoot to kill 47 90.38%
No, I would never use a gun 5 9.62%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 12:03 AM   #41
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshac
Sure they do, although I believe you're limited to 15' or so.
Yeah. I did a quick google on tasers and found the following sites willing to sell you a taser:

http://www.tbotech.com/advancedtaser.htm

http://www.amazing1.com/prot.htm

http://www.personalarms.com/tasers.htm

http://www.defenseproducts101.com/tasers.html

http://www.safetyessentials.com/tasers.html

http://store.mystunguns.com/stunguns.html

http://www.protectionspecialities.co...rs.html?google

http://mesamotorsports.safeshopper.c...cat170.htm?460
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 05:57 AM   #42
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
No.* Anecdotal stories don't change the statistics.* Look at the total experience of this board:* http://early-retirement.org/forums/i...p?topic=4103.0

Over 38 people living in North America today -- probably well over 1000 years of living experience.* Not one has ever had an occasion when shooting a gun at someone would have helped.* And even though I didn't ask the question in that poll, several pointed out experiences where gun ownership cost innocent people their lives or health.*

As far as I can tell, buying a gun to protect you from bad people is about the same as buying lottery tickets -- but lottery tickets that have a greater chance of exploding than winning.* *

I don't mind if someone wants to own a gun.* I don't mind if they actually believe it makes them safer. . . just like I don't mind if someone buys lottery tickets each week because they think they might win.* But I can't see any reason to believe that owning a gun is likely to make me safer.* And I don't buy lottery tickets either.* *
Personal protection is just one of many good reasons to own guns.
Anyway, if you crave some real stats, check out
"More Guns = Less Crime". Forget the author, but I think he was
a university professor which is kind of amazing.

JG
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 06:02 AM   #43
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Re: Self Protection

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Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
This question has no more relevance to me than the question raised several weeks back about whether you would spend a night with someone for $1M.* The odds of me needing to shoot someone to same my life or protect my family are nearly zilch.* I'm not going to spend a lot of time mulling that kind of thing over.*

If you have to spend time "mulling", then I agree with you.........you shouldn't
own a gun. Most people either already have them or are convinced
they need/want one. If you have to sit around and strain your brain
over what to do, I suggest you just skip it.

JG
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 06:42 AM   #44
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
As far as I can tell, buying a gun to protect you from bad people is about the same as buying lottery tickets
But there's no down-side to losing with a lottery ticket

Quote:
"More Guns = Less Crime". Forget the author, but I think he was university professor which is kind of amazing
Lott, I think his name was. Good eye-opening data but I thik still "massaged" a bit to make his point. Guns work in ND, SD, MT, but I dont thin giving very body a gubn in DC or Detroit will suddenly make them Peaceful Valley
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 07:59 AM   #45
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGALT2U
Personal protection is just one of many good reasons to own guns.
Anyway, if you crave some real stats, check out
"More Guns = Less Crime". Forget the author, but I think he was
a university professor which is kind of amazing.

JG
This book is by John Lott and his conclusions and statistics are subject to dispute. See Wikipedia entry for Lott for the arguments on both sides: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 08:11 AM   #46
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG


As far as I can tell, buying a gun to protect you from bad people is about the same as buying lottery tickets -- but lottery tickets that have a greater chance of exploding than winning.* *

I don't mind if someone wants to own a gun.* I don't mind if they actually believe it makes them safer. . . just like I don't mind if someone buys lottery tickets each week because they think they might win.* But I can't see any reason to believe that owning a gun is likely to make me safer.* And I don't buy lottery tickets either.* *
Last I heard, nobody has ever accidentally been shot with a losing lottery ticket. I DEFINATELY mind if people buy guns.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 08:22 AM   #47
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Re: Self Protection

You must count on yourself when you're suddenly in a New Orleans-type situation. Now, you can do it with guns or you can do it with poisoned darts, but you have to do it. Self-reliance will keep you alive until one of those policemen who fled the NOLa police force show up to save you.

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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 01:45 PM   #48
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Re: Self Protection

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Originally Posted by Martha
This book is by John Lott and his conclusions and statistics are subject to dispute.*
So surprised about that! - on another thread we demonstrated that Darwin's theory of evolution is subject to dispute.

Ha
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 02:10 PM   #49
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Re: Self Protection

- Katrina kills hundreds or possibly thousands.

- Hundreds, possibly thousands more die waiting for rescue

- Hundreds of thousands of people stretched across three states loose nearly all posessions to storm.

- Some reports from a few locations cite wandering bands of lawless invaders raping and looting.

Solution: Everyone should own a gun.

Huh

If owning a gun makes you feel safe, then own one. I'm sure you already do. I doubt you will ever have a real occasion when it will protect you. I hope, in fact, you never do. And, if against all odds, you do have occasion to use it for protection, I hope you have it in your possession, can get it loaded quickly enough, are not overwhelmed by the number of lawless invaders, shoot accurately enough to stop them, and don't get shot yourself. I also hope you don't have an accident with your gun and that no one in your family has an accident with it. Good luck with all of that.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 02:20 PM   #50
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Re: Self Protection

As is sometimes the case, methinks there is a lot more noise than signal on this thread. How about some "anecdotes" from intimately known 2nd parties?

My wife saved herself with a shotgun before she had turned 20 years old. Some punk was quietly cutting the screen in her ground floor bedroom in Boston Mass. She woke up, and touched the "gentleman'sĒ belly with her JC Higgens shotgun barrel. He took off pronto. Don't think he had just come to change her screens though. Now I suppose some might blame her for living in a marginal neighborhood. Feel that she should move rather than own a gun. But what if her school and job were both nearby, if she had no car, and if she was very short of money? Should she be raped and perhaps murdered because she had not somehow managed to skip youth and poverty and vaulted herself to middle-aged wealth? Some of you may think so, but she didnít and I don't. Her two sons donít think so either.

My Dad was mugged at age 75, in the middle of downtown Cincinnati. A group of "gentlemen" had him down kicking him. He managed to get his gun out and they took off. Of course the police never caught them; nor did they probably make much of an effort.

In neither of these cases did a shot get fired. But both of them would have done so. They preferred that to being hapless passive victims. And so would I.

I don't carry a gun, because I think my personal risk is small. But I would always own one, and I would carry one if I thought my risk was greater.

Attacks are not unusual. The fact that some young suburban man hasn't been directly threatened by violence is utterly meaningless. OTOH, rape is so common it often doesn't get reported. I have an aunt who was raped at age 40, by a creep that had hidden on the floor of her car in a shopping center. She could have possibly foiled the attack without a gun, and a gun would not have certainly prevented it. Still, if it were me Iíd take the gun and see. Old men get stomped with some regularity. Beatings can kill you, young or old, but more surely if you are old. Remember Fat Tuesday, Seattle PD's day of infamy?

I suppose the same mindset that makes people want to trust their financial health to Divine Providence as revealed by Bernstein and Bogle makes them want to trust their lives to Divine Providence and the police.

Ha

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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 02:27 PM   #51
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by retire@40
I would use a knife if I had to, but,


2) It would probably take a lot longer to kill the guy, unless I hit his heart.
Is your intent to protect yourself or to kill?
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 02:47 PM   #52
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Re: Self Protection

Order, Disorder, and superficial order.

In our society we have a sense of, or desire for, deep orderliness. We like to know how things and people will be behave in the world--even hurricanes. We have an expectation of orderliness in people too. And when the rules of orderliness are broken, we expect the police to come and fix things for us. That's why they are paid. That's why we have a court system and a jails. Sometimes the police don't come, and at those times we may or may not need guns to restore a sort of superficial order. But it is very superficial at best, and, at least in one sense, only one form of disorder (armed citizens who perhaps should wait for the police) facing off against another form of disorder--and canceling out one or both disorders--or not.

What we should strive for is a strong sense of orderliness that runs deep into the soul, deep into the hearts and minds of individuals, and deep into social group consciousness. Accomplishing such good ends is difficult and complex. Time, money and lots of human thinking and acting are required to do them.

Guns and talking about them during disorderly times, for the most part, are a visceral, superfical reaction to fear--to my mind anyway.

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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 02:59 PM   #53
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Re: Self Protection

I should have learned to stay out of these, except for the silly stuff thats hard to ignore.

I've owned guns, and I used to teach overprivileged kids to shoot .22's 20-something years ago. They're fine tools in the right hands.

The things that bother me are the funny statistics and anecdotes people use to defend the 'right' of ownership. 99.5% of the time, they're oddballs, spun badly, or rather unique.

I would think that many here would trust me to at least some degree when it comes to statistics and weaning the good from the bad stat. If thats so, trust that I have seen absolutely no concrete data that says you are safer owning a gun than not owning one.

In clean statistics, you are far more likely to not be able to reach your gun, have your gun stolen, have a friend or family member shoot themselves with it (or you shoot them accidentally), have it taken away from you by an intruder, or shoot at but fail to hit or disable the intruder with your gun than you are to save yourself from a life threatening situation. Even in a life threatening situation where you 'protect' yourself, you are quite likely to cause harm or loss of life that may place you in a situation where you may be prosecuted for using the gun.

It bothers me a lot when someone with an opinion so twists and tortures data to prove their point.

The biggest flaw in logic though is presuming everyone who owns a gun will be as well minded and mannered as you are. Remember all the idiots who do all the idiotic things you see each and every day? A lot of them own guns and will use them when the situation isnt warranted.

But the genie is out of the bottle in this country, so debate is irrelevant.

For me, three 100lb dogs, good locks on the doors, windows that are hard to break, an alarm, and a pepper spray container and baseball bat are good enough.

But then I might enjoy one of them 'close encounters in the dark'...
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 03:30 PM   #54
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
But the thought of having a gun in my home....I think it would prey on my mind, like the telltale heart or the ring of power. It would disturb my sense of safety rather than enhance it.
This was exactly my problem when I had my gun in the house.* I initially bought it for target practice with my boyfriend.* (I'm pretty good too, btw.)*

But having it in the house made me consider it for self-defense, and THAT made me increasingly paranoid.* Where should I keep it so as to be readily available to me in emergency?* How would I know, when I returned to the house after shopping, etc., whether someone was in the hosue and had found it?* What if an intruder got into my bedroom before I woke up enough to react?* (Happened to a friend of mine.)* Maybe I need one of those safes that only open with a thumbprint?* What about a trigger lock to protect my nieces and nephews, and how quickly could I remove one if need be?

So I started to double- and triple-check the exterior doors, installed an extra lock on my bedroom door, considered a dog to help alert me...* and on and on.

Finally, I put the thing in my friend's safe.* I can get it any time I want it for target practice, and I sleep better too.*

I agree with what someone else said earlier...* if I feel the need to arm myself in this neighborhood, I'll just move.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 03:36 PM   #55
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline
This was exactly my problem when I had my gun in the house.* I initially bought it for target practice with my boyfriend.* (I'm pretty good too, btw.)*
What an interesting idea. Most people use paper or metal targets but I can see a lot of advantages to practicing on a moving target. Is this the same BF that does all the cooking? No wonder.

I bet it's hard on the relationship, though... how do you decide when target practice is over?
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 04:19 PM   #56
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Re: Self Protection

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Originally Posted by ()
I should have learned to stay out of these, except for the silly stuff thats hard to ignore.

I've owned guns, and I used to teach overprivileged kids to shoot .22's 20-something years ago.* They're fine tools in the right hands.

The things that bother me are the funny statistics and anecdotes people use to defend the 'right' of ownership.* 99.5% of the time, they're oddballs, spun badly, or rather unique.

I would think that many here would trust me to at least some degree when it comes to statistics and weaning the good from the bad stat.* If thats so, trust that I have seen absolutely no concrete data that says you are safer owning a gun than not owning one.

In clean statistics, you are far more likely to not be able to reach your gun, have your gun stolen, have a friend or family member shoot themselves with it (or you shoot them accidentally), have it taken away from you by an intruder, or shoot at but fail to hit or disable the intruder with your gun than you are to save yourself from a life threatening situation. Even in a life threatening situation where you 'protect' yourself, you are quite likely to cause harm or loss of life that may place you in a situation where you may be prosecuted for using the gun.

It bothers me a lot when someone with an opinion so twists and tortures data to prove their point.

The biggest flaw in logic though is presuming everyone who owns a gun will be as well minded and mannered as you are.* Remember all the idiots who do all the idiotic things you see each and every day?* A lot of them own guns and will use them when the situation isnt warranted.

But the genie is out of the bottle in this country, so debate is irrelevant.

For me, three 100lb dogs, good locks on the doors, windows that are hard to break, an alarm, and a pepper spray container and baseball bat are good enough.

But then I might enjoy one of them 'close encounters in the dark'...
It's been a while since I had a "close encounter in the dark". As far as the
"genie out of the bottle", may it ever be thus.

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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 04:20 PM   #57
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Re: Self Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline
But having it in the house made me consider it for self-defense, and THAT made me increasingly paranoid. Where should I keep it so as to be readily available to me in emergency? How would I know, when I returned to the house after shopping, etc., whether someone was in the hosue and had found it? What if an intruder got into my bedroom before I woke up enough to react? (Happened to a friend of mine.) Maybe I need one of those safes that only open with a thumbprint? What about a trigger lock to protect my nieces and nephews, and how quickly could I remove one if need be?
Those are the reasons I've decided not to get a gun so far...because the only way I'd accept it is to have it unloaded and locked up.

My first defense against a home intruder would be to jump out the window or lunge at him like a deranged bear depending on a snap judgement. Actually I guess the first defense would be shouting when I hear them at the door. When I was in my teens we lived in a house with window air conditioners, and we had cardboard taped to fill the gap between the A/C unit and the window. One night I was in the house alone and I heard someone start messing with the cardboard. I said in the deepest voice I could muster "what the hell is that?" But the noise continued. Whoever it was wasn't afraid of me and that scared me quite a bit. Then the cat's paw came through the cardboard and she pushed her way in.

A gun purchase for me would be largely recreational with doses of calamity insurance and whatever it is we guys have about guns.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 04:27 PM   #58
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Re: Self Protection

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Originally Posted by BigMoneyJim
Those are the reasons I've decided not to get a gun so far...because the only way I'd accept it is to have it unloaded and locked up.

My first defense against a home intruder would be to jump out the window or lunge at him like a deranged bear depending on a snap judgement. Actually I guess the first defense would be shouting when I hear them at the door. When I was in my teens we lived in a house with window air conditioners, and we had cardboard taped to fill the gap between the A/C unit and the window. One night I was in the house alone and I heard someone start messing with the cardboard. I said in the deepest voice I could muster "what the hell is that?" But the noise continued. Whoever it was wasn't afraid of me and that scared me quite a bit. Then the cat's paw came through the cardboard and she pushed her way in.

A gun purchase for me would be largely recreational with doses of calamity insurance and whatever it is we guys have about guns.
An unloaded/locked up gun is useless. If that is your intent, just save your money.

JG
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-06-2005, 07:46 PM   #59
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Re: Self Protection

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Originally Posted by Cal
Is your intent to protect yourself or to kill?
If someone breaks into my house, my predetermined assumption is that he may kill me or my family, so yes, my intent would be to kill the intruder before he kills me or my family. And I would kill the intruder with a gun, a knife, a club, or whatever else I could use.
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Re: Self Protection
Old 09-08-2005, 01:59 AM   #60
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Re: Self Protection

SG, I'm a bit fascinated that your evidence above is based upon 48 responses in an internet forum poll.* There is conflicting evidence about how many crimes are stopped by armed citizens ... as noted above, usually no shots are fired.* And, the media is loathe to report successful civilian efforts at armed self defense.*

For those who have never trained with firearms, aren't aware of the great many practical products now available to properly secure firearms (loaded, and ready to use), and especially have either not been nor know law enforcement officers ("LEO's") ...* there is an understandable tendency to see gun ownership as dangerous, impractical and unnecessary.

But they are just tools that can be stored and used safely, with training and care.*

With very, very few exceptions, the LEO's I've known privately tell you they think it is foolish for people to be unable to protect themselves and their families until the professionals / LEO's arrive.* Check the stat's on 911 responses.* They usually arrive after the violence is over.* And, common law precedent confirms that LEO's do not have a duty nor liability when it comes to protecting your life.

At the end of the day, as long as folks grant each other the freedom (barring convicted violent felons ...) to own and bear arms, then the balance is just fine.* To each his own.

Here's to hoping that none of us on this forum ever find ourselves in a NOLA situation, or come under violent criminal attack.

[Unfortunately, my wife and I have both encountered violence ... she and a girlfriend found a boyfriend murdered, just for a small amount of cash ... my sister-in-law was raped at an ATM, and left bleeding in the bushes ... and a Controller who used to work for me was strangled by a hit man hired by her ex. Could any of them have stopped those crimes? We'll never know ... they never had the chance, as these crimes occurred before concealed carry laws.]
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