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Old 09-03-2007, 12:04 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
Actually, no...

The 'crime' is the same... the punishment is the phase where the weight of all circumstances should be taken into account...

Let me give an example... I was on a jury with aggravated robbery.. that is defined loosely as someone who commits a robbery with a weapon... that weapon could be a bottle or a gun... as long as it is a weapon, it can get the aggravated part...

Now, there could be a guy who goes into a drug store and robs from the people there with a gun, but it was medicine to keep his child alive... OR it could be someone who took a night stick beat the crap out of someone and took their car...

Both are 'the same crime'... we, the jury had the option after we found the person guilty of giving the person a sentence of IIRC 10 years probation up to LIFE in prison... now, that is a wide sentence available to the jury, but it is decided by the jury...

The hate crime laws states that if someone beat up a gay guy, but not that bad, but he said "I hate gays" while doing it will get a harsh sentence JUST BECAUSE HIS VICTIM IS GAY... not that it was a horrible crime, but the victim was gay...

and if he beat me up even worse and yelled that "I hate old white guys", he committed a lesser crime, BECAUSE I AM NOT GAY... and more than likely would get less of a sentence...

You see, I see them making YOU a special class because of your sexual orientation... no other reason... and I think that is just wrong...

Tex, it's not "just because" it IS because...if someone is targeting a person because of who they are (any random individual part of some group whether it's ethnic, religious, gender, etc) - the violence and emotional stress is felt by many people, not just the one (or however many) direct victims.

The intent behind the harsher sentences is to 1) dissuade this type of behavior and 2) recognize the broader impact these crimes have.

Say for instance you do live in small town USA and are a gay person...if that person is targeted either by actual violence for by harassment - that person is not the only victim...often the intent too is to get all of that group to disappear, or be less visible or whatever.

i have been with many friends during their contemplation and coming out process and i can tell you i went to a liberal school in a big city - and to see them go through so much stress was hard to watch. It's easy to say things are different these days...but when you're the one sitting there facing whether to accept yourself or not, tell others or not (constantly) etc...it is an arduous process...
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Old 09-03-2007, 12:32 AM   #122
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This whole issue seems more or less incomprehensible to me. On the issue of gay displays of public affection, where I live I see as many men kissing men and women kissing women as I see men kissing women or women kissing men. In fact, today I saw some white guy plant a passionate one on an Asian woman while they were standing in a crosswalk. She seemed a little uncomfortable about it. Who knows, maybe she didn't want to get run over. Also interesting is hand holding. Same sex couples seem every bit as comfortable holding hands as mixed sex couples do.

On the issue of public sexual bids, who are we kidding? If you don't find a partner in public, how do you find one? Call an escort service?

Maybe it is just like what Lazy said- nobody wants a nice thing like sex to get mixed up with a yucky one like defecation?

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Old 09-03-2007, 12:58 AM   #123
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thank you greg for your concern but i am no more uncomfortable here than i am any time i leave my home. this is hardly the first time i have found myself at odds with a preponderate of heterosexual opinion.

there are lots of way for people to express themselves. painting is not the only good art. baseball not the only good sport. tofu pad thai not the only good meal. lying for art, sport, a meal or sex will rarely bring lasting satisfaction. honest & open expression does.

as to the senator’s behavior, i realize this is hard to swallow but it really is none of my concern. perhaps i would feel otherwise if i had unsupervised children utilizing airport bathrooms. if i were to condemn him i would have to condemn society which i see as having shaped him. this does not mean that i don’t see him as being responsible for his own actions. i simply see mitigating circumstances.

compared to the ensuing discussion, i consider the genesis practically irrelevant. it would be like forgetting everything we know now and discussing only the instant of our arrival without understanding how that might have come to be or where it might lead. i would rather discuss—because i think it is more germane if only to our sense of purpose—not only how we got here but where we go. because i think that is better than being stuck in a topic that will otherwise only go round and round but never get anywhere. though i will not be surprised when this too is merely swept under the bathroom mat.

as to honesty in living our lives, there is a big difference between enjoying sex for sex’s sake and lying to get some. healthy sex between two (or more) people, when none of whom are fooling themselves, is not only satisfying, but amazing. i realize this is not in the moral majority’s morale, but then neither is mercy (i.e. the death penalty), so i’ll just have to be ok with that.

it must be nice to hold hands or give a peck on the cheek and not give a second thought about having a rock tossed at your head. i’ve never known such security. i’ve never lived in such a world and yet i am your neighbor. how lucky it must be to have been born heterosexual. as for me? i happen to enjoy potato chips.
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:37 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum View Post
did not mean to direct my comments to you personally but it happened that in your comment that you shared it serves as example of how homophobia creeps into speech of even those who think themselves accepting.

.
Lazy ,my comment comes from personal experience .My son was gay and I saw how much predjudice he encountered and how difficult it was for him .I wish things were different but in many places they just aren't .I felt bad that his life was restricted .That's why I was glad he lived in New York City and had a more accepting life .So my remark came more from a Mother's concern than a political anything .By the way I say was because my son died of food poisoning at 32 .
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:10 AM   #125
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Tex, it's not "just because" it IS because...if someone is targeting a person because of who they are (any random individual part of some group whether it's ethnic, religious, gender, etc) - the violence and emotional stress is felt by many people, not just the one (or however many) direct victims.

The intent behind the harsher sentences is to 1) dissuade this type of behavior and 2) recognize the broader impact these crimes have.

Say for instance you do live in small town USA and are a gay person...if that person is targeted either by actual violence for by harassment - that person is not the only victim...often the intent too is to get all of that group to disappear, or be less visible or whatever.

i have been with many friends during their contemplation and coming out process and i can tell you i went to a liberal school in a big city - and to see them go through so much stress was hard to watch. It's easy to say things are different these days...but when you're the one sitting there facing whether to accept yourself or not, tell others or not (constantly) etc...it is an arduous process...
I disagree.... the crime was to that one individual... anybody who feels 'victimized' is doing so for some other reason...

And I also said that the jury could take all aspects into consideration for sentence... the problem I have is that the state has made a crime against gays more harsh than a crime against straights...

Let's say that a guy beats up someone gay, and the guy has a black eye and bruises... but nothing serious... but it meets the law for the 'gay' crime.. and that same guy then beats up some 95 yo woman for her SS check and she is in the hospital with major injuries for months...


Which crime is worse? According to the law, the first one is worse. WHY? Because the gay community was able to brow beat the legislature into making it a 'hate' crime... yet the result is the second is worse...

And if I was on a jury, I would want to put that second guy away for many more years than the first...

NOW, if that first guy had other convictions... then YES, put him away for 20 years also... but I am saying that this is the first crime for both of them so prior acts are not involved...


I was going to say 'I am sorry to say", but in truth, I am not sorry... I do not think gays are a special class... I think they are normal people.
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Old 09-03-2007, 10:00 AM   #126
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Texas Proud, I think you're a little off-base with your assessment of the situation regarding hate crimes. First of all, these crimes don't just apply to gay victims but originally were conceived by the legislatures to punish criminal conduct that had a decidedly racial, ethnic or religious bent to them; sexual orientation was later added to the mix of things. Your prior example regarding a crime targeted against a white person because he was white would fit into the mix of the conduct made criminal. The targeting of someone because of his race, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation becomes an aggravating criminal element of an underlining crime, much the same way that many crimes can become greater crimes because of a victim's age. (Most criminal codes provide special crimes when the victims are minors or elderly.)

In my opinion, these hate crimes deserve special condemnation and the legislatures have appropriately defined the criminal conduct. These crimes don't just apply because the victim happens to be white, black, hispanic, asian, gay, jewish, muslim, christian, Russian, Polish, or from Albania
-- they apply because the perpetrator has singled out the victim because of his ethnic, religious, racial, or sexual orientation status. In singling out that status, the perpetrator has decided to terrorize segments of our communities, and the potential for things getting out of whack, quickly, is very real.
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Old 09-03-2007, 10:14 AM   #127
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Lazy:

The Nature Of Hypocrisy (as I see it)

For what it's worth. And we are all products/creations of our own thoughts.

When I was about twenty-two and in college, I had a gay friend (about twenty-eight) who was married (+two children). I sort of watched him come out of the closet. He would mostly explain what was going on in his life and I'd listen.

One thing he said during those times has stayed vividly with me over the years. He said that he thought about sex at least once every 3-4 minutes all day, all the time. He said he had no control over it: He would be listening to a professor lecturing and his gaze would turn to another fellow male student and he would start having sex thoughts about him.

I thought this was a lot and also sort of obsessive--at the time. But then I started watching my own thoughts. I'd walk into a lecture hall and immediately start scoping out the ladies. When the lecture was getting boring, my mind would wander toward some other young lady. I was doing the exact same thing but with girls, but also, perhaps, not quite as frequently. And perhaps the intensity of my imagining was not as powerful (I didn't imagine having sex with her in the aisle for 5-10 minutes while the professor's lecture was going on--for the most part). The thought patterns were similar between my gay friend and I and didn't vary too much in experience except that mine were about girls and his were about boys. We had much more in common than I had previously thought. I would be walking down the hallway with a different, straight friend in a heated and intense philosophical discussion and some hot blonde Minnesota babe would walk by and "Wow" the conversation was driven completely from our minds as our heads simultaneously twisted around. (So much for leading a meaningful life.) We laughed and giggled, sort of, and made little nasty comments about where we wanted to go for the rest of our lives a while.

Anyway, I think everyone has these sorts of thoughts, even old farts and ladies (but for the ladies a very few times-and mostly only on their honeymoons). Metaphorically, a lot of us want to eat all the potato chips all the time. But . . . I think over time or as we get a little older and move out of our twenties, we start having meta-thoughts about these types of mild obsessions/thoughts. We may think "I shouldn't be thinking about sex quite so much; I need to focus on my work or my family or something a bit less prurient."

These higher order thoughts are sort of a gift from God as I see things. They recognize one's actual constant sex thoughts as less than ideal and interfering of/with mature behavior. They lay out an ideal behavior (family values?) as a comparative. . . . you end up seeing your own very real behavior in juxtaposition to a set of morals or ideal behavior. The gap between the two when it is recognized is usually identified as hypocrisy. "Do what I think is right, not what I actually do--which is wrong." (If our imaginations had free play in the world . . . would things ever be a mess.)

We all have remarkably similar experiences of hypocrisy as best I can tell. They fall into the pattern described above, but just with different objects and words and people attached at times.

Now to stay directly on topic. My pure speculation is that Larry Craig has these obsessive patterns of thought about sex. And they never lessened with age. It's very hard to do something about such thoughts if they never slow down or lessen in intensity . . . (poor guy). To my mind, one can accept them for what they are and just sort of channel them as best as possible toward something better. Or one can deny they exist and box them up as best possible, e.g. in a Republican, conservative blanket, creating a worse situation in the long run because of one's inability to recognize these thoughts as a natural part of one's self and then work with them to make life better, more elevating. I think Larry Craig failed to do anything positive about his situation. He had a dark lizard running down his leg, controlling him. And by clinging to that hypocrisy without understanding it and trying to close the gap from one side or the other or both sides, things squirted out in a terrible fashion and all across the national consciousness.

I see Craig as someone who recognized his baser sex impulses (duh, obviously) and may have been so upset with them that he ran in fright and terror to the other side of the hypocrisy gap as a refuge from it for forty years or more. (But I may very well be very wrong.) He made things worse for others and himself by adamantly refusing to understand and subsequently soften his many harsh judgments.

We all have these hypocrisy defects, some more mildly evident in some folks than in others, and we should be sharing and helping each other to solve them, not boxing them up, labeling them as bad, and turning away in disgust. We all share similar thoughts and emotions.
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:24 AM   #128
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Greg, i think part of the equation is how much homophobia drives men who have interest/desire for other men to bury it - thereby making it a hidden, mentally oppressive state...causing some to behave in reckless or irresponsible ways...of course in both straight and gay camps you will have those who are just more sexual or obsessed with it...but the overarching homophobia causes some to feel trapped/stressed in ways a straight person may not understand.

Tex, i think your desire to treat people unequivocally equal is great...but can you consider the possibility that you may not understand what it feels like to be a target of such hatred? if someone was going out and randomly shooting asian women in my town, saying that we should all die etc...and i wasn't shot - i wasn't directly, physically hurt, but emotionally and mentally i would definitely be effected and imagine how that would affect my young daughters? some people live in such fear - sure you can say, "get over it" but i don't think that addresses the reality that crazy sh*t has happened.

imagine the poor young teen boy, wrestling with his sexuality, then he see's what happened to poor mathew shephard? what do you think that did to him? or the young teen boy who is straight (perhaps has some uncomfortable feelings about guys too, but doesn't know what to do with those feelings) - he may now think it's ok to harass/hurt gay guys for whatever reason...i do think they are quite different than a random murder or bar brawl...and it's never just because the victim "happened to be X or X" there has to be some evidence that bigotry was a driver in the event.
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:30 AM   #129
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moemg, if not phobia then fear. i would rather live a life without either. thank you for clarifying your motivation. but even this highlights how society effects the person. if someone thinks it is scary for mom, imagine how scary for the gay child. even if he is a 62 year old senator.

so sorry for your loss, if i may offer what i hope might lead to some comfort there:

the nature of a child's relationship with parents is that from the first they are always in our lives and then they are no longer there for the rest of our lives.

the nature of a parent's relationship to a child is that first the child is never in their life and then the child is always there.

as well, the nature of the relationship of significant others is that first they are not in your life and then you expect them in your life for the duration.

this is why losing a child is the hardest pain to bare, even more difficult than losing a life partner but way more difficult than losing a parent because of how the nature of these relationships prepare us.
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:43 AM   #130
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Lazy ,my comment comes from personal experience .My son was gay and I saw how much predjudice he encountered and how difficult it was for him .I wish things were different but in many places they just aren't .I felt bad that his life was restricted .That's why I was glad he lived in New York City and had a more accepting life .So my remark came more from a Mother's concern than a political anything .By the way I say was because my son died of food poisoning at 32 .

Oh Moemg, i'm sorry for your loss! losing a child is definitely something we would all not want to face...

In terms of moving to a better/more accepting place - i always wonder why people stay in certain places...why doesn't everyone just make a beeline to west hollywood, SF or other places?

well, it might have to do with how much where you grow up makes you who you are...being gay is just one aspect of a person's life... those places also have their own insanity that may make someone uncomfortable even if they are gay!

somewhat related, but maybe not - why do people live in places like upper canada near the arctic circle? certainly with modern transportation, you could make a beeline to warmer parts and not endure 60 below temps?! but something i think makes people stay where they were raised...whether it be cause that's where their family and community is, or because the thought of learning how to live somewhere else is too daunting?
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Old 09-03-2007, 12:16 PM   #131
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i think part of the equation is how much homophobia drives men who have interest/desire for other men to bury it - thereby making it a hidden, mentally oppressive state...causing some to behave in reckless or irresponsible ways...of course in both straight and gay camps you will have those who are just more sexual or obsessed with it...but the overarching homophobia causes some to feel trapped/stressed in ways a straight person may not understand.

I couldn't agree more. From one form of extremism to a different one all inside one person--is my guess. If one side of the teeter-todder feels too heavy and unbalanced, just add a pile of weight (homophobia) to the other side for compensation. If he saw all these sex elements going on inside him as dark and nasty, then he needed something light and bright (and public) for compensation (strong family values?). Public side = (the opposite of) the private side. My guess is that he didn't see that the two ends of the teeder-todder were actually connected by a psychological board. What a wild ride for him--is my guess--and very unhappy too.

And I have to quit thinking about this stuff too.
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Old 09-03-2007, 12:31 PM   #132
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greg,

your sexual desire keeps you from loneliness. is that not healing? your sexual desire draws you to others. is that not spiritual?

i do not find at all anything impure or unholy about sexual desire just like i do not find anything prurient about housing myself or shameful about finding food. i simply prefer not taking my meals in airport bathrooms.

for me all of life is a gift and not just the pretty wrapped parts. i do not disintegrate my sexuality from my humanity. for me, spirituality is not something separate from the rest of me. i do not buy into religion which teaches that in order to find your spirituality which it places out there that you first have to disassociate yourself with your own physicality here. i prefer a life of integrity. i do not have to cut myself to pieces to make myself whole. i see a humanity that does not have to destroy itself to be itself. i see humanity that should not have to hide itself. that should not be ashamed of its own nature. but rather should celebrate & ride free in fields what has been given rather than kicking that gift horse in the mouth and throwing it into its stall.


from hedwig and the angry inch
"the origin of love" music & lyrics by stephen trask

When the earth was still flat,
And the clouds made of fire,
And mountains stretched up to the sky,
Sometimes higher,
Folks roamed the earth
Like big rolling kegs.
They had two sets of arms.
They had two sets of legs.
They had two faces peering
Out of one giant head
So they could watch all around them
As they talked; while they read.
And they never knew nothing of love.
It was before the origin of love.

The origin of love

And there were three sexes then,
One that looked like two men
Glued up back to back,
Called the children of the sun.
And similar in shape and girth
Were the children of the earth.
They looked like two girls
Rolled up in one.
And the children of the moon
Were like a fork shoved on a spoon.
They were part sun, part earth
Part daughter, part son.

The origin of love

Now the gods grew quite scared
Of our strength and defiance
And Thor said,
"I'm gonna kill them all
With my hammer,
Like I killed the giants."
And Zeus said, "No,
You better let me
Use my lightening, like scissors,
Like I cut the legs off the whales
And dinosaurs into lizards."
Then he grabbed up some bolts
And he let out a laugh,
Said, "I'll split them right down the middle.
Gonna cut them right up in half."
And then storm clouds gathered above
Into great balls of fire

And then fire shot down
From the sky in bolts
Like shining blades
Of a knife.
And it ripped
Right through the flesh
Of the children of the sun
And the moon
And the earth.
And some Indian god
Sewed the wound up into a hole,
Pulled it round to our belly
To remind us of the price we pay.
And Osiris and the gods of the Nile
Gathered up a big storm
To blow a hurricane,
To scatter us away,
In a flood of wind and rain,
And a sea of tidal waves,
To wash us all away,
And if we don't behave
They'll cut us down again
And we'll be hopping round on one foot
And looking through one eye.

Last time I saw you
We had just split in two.
You were looking at me.
I was looking at you.
You had a way so familiar,
But I could not recognize,
Cause you had blood on your face;
I had blood in my eyes.
But I could swear by your expression
That the pain down in your soul
Was the same as the one down in mine.
That's the pain,
Cuts a straight line
Down through the heart;
We called it love.
So we wrapped our arms around each other,
Trying to shove ourselves back together.
We were making love,
Making love.
It was a cold dark evening,
Such a long time ago,
When by the mighty hand of Jove,
It was the sad story
How we became
Lonely two-legged creatures,
It's the story of
The origin of love.
That's the origin of love.
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Old 09-03-2007, 04:36 PM   #133
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Tex, i think your desire to treat people unequivocally equal is great...but can you consider the possibility that you may not understand what it feels like to be a target of such hatred? if someone was going out and randomly shooting asian women in my town, saying that we should all die etc...and i wasn't shot - i wasn't directly, physically hurt, but emotionally and mentally i would definitely be effected and imagine how that would affect my young daughters? some people live in such fear - sure you can say, "get over it" but i don't think that addresses the reality that crazy sh*t has happened.

Again... I do not see it as a 'special crime'.. a horrible crime yes, and the laws are such in Texas that the guy would probable be convicted of capital murder and get the death penalty WITHOUT having a hate crime...

And then... how is it applied.... this crime has a tragic ending as the boy who was beat up killed himself recently...

Texas Teens Won't Face Hate Crimes Charges

And let's be clear.... these things are not going to happen without some kind of 'hate'...

And I have been on the jury of a case where a black man beat the dickens out of a white girl while stealing her car... and it was shown in court that he continued to beat her because she was white... in fact, the jury thought he was trying to kill her... we asked why it was not a hate crime.. the prosecutor said it was to hard to prove that it was and she thought she could get a harsh sentence under the existing laws.. we, the jury, looked at all the facts and gave the guy an appropriate sentence... and it was not based on his race, but the crime...

And I am sure that there are others in the neighborhood who are scared they might get car jacked... in fact it happens in that neighborhood more than some others...


I am also reading up on the Texas law... I don't see where it protects 'me'... I will have to look at the law a bit more... but to me it seems that it still is making someone a 'special class' because of who they are and not the crime committed...

http://digital.library.unt.edu/govdo...eta-crs-7455:1
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Old 09-03-2007, 05:00 PM   #134
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I am also reading up on the Texas law... I don't see where it protects 'me'... I will have to look at the law a bit more... but to me it seems that it still is making someone a 'special class' because of who they are and not the crime committed...
Welcome to 21st century USA, TP!

Ha
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Old 09-03-2007, 05:36 PM   #135
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And I have been on the jury of a case where a black man beat the dickens out of a white girl while stealing her car... and it was shown in court that he continued to beat her because she was white... in fact, the jury thought he was trying to kill her... we asked why it was not a hate crime.. the prosecutor said it was to hard to prove that it was and she thought she could get a harsh sentence under the existing laws.. we, the jury, looked at all the facts and gave the guy an appropriate sentence... and it was not based on his race, but the crime...



I am also reading up on the Texas law... I don't see where it protects 'me'... I will have to look at the law a bit more... but to me it seems that it still is making someone a 'special class' because of who they are and not the crime committed...

http://digital.library.unt.edu/govdo...eta-crs-7455:1
You mention the race of the victim and the perpetrator and yet you believe, given our society's racial problems, that the jury you served on did not consider the racial elements of the case in rendering its decision. I'm sorry but I find that incredulous -- in my years on this planet, I have never come across 12 or 7 randomly selected people in this Country who do not exhibit some degree of racial prejudice -- I wish it weren't so, but we are far from achieving the ideal of a racially neutral society. Unconsciously, I suspect, your jury did consider the racial aspects of the victim and defendant -- and I bet the prosecutor strategically played that racial card; he didn't need to ask for enhanced or aggravated circumstances because a jury, especially one sympathetic to the victim, would intuitively take that into account.

These hate crimes do protect "us," you just have to start thinking of "me" as "we." "We" are all collectively hurt by these crimes. There are difficult cases of prosecuting "hate crimes" but we generally know a hate crime when we see it, such as the vandalism and burning cross at the home of the black family that just moved into the neighborhood. Keep studying those laws and you'll recognize that they express the collective will of the community.
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:33 PM   #136
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I am also reading up on the Texas law... I don't see where it protects 'me'... I will have to look at the law a bit more... but to me it seems that it still is making someone a 'special class' because of who they are and not the crime committed...

http://digital.library.unt.edu/govdo...eta-crs-7455:1
Tex, I get we disagree, that's ok... just wondering though - what you mean by "protect me?"

if you are not perpetrating a hate crime, than you won't be subjected to harsher sentencing...

are you saying if you were hurt/violated because of your race, gender, etc...you don't think you'd be protected?

Hate crime laws in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

this doesn't mention only specific races, genders or religions... etc
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:23 PM   #137
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Tex, I get we disagree, that's ok... just wondering though - what you mean by "protect me?"

if you are not perpetrating a hate crime, than you won't be subjected to harsher sentencing...

are you saying if you were hurt/violated because of your race, gender, etc...you don't think you'd be protected?

Hate crime laws in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

this doesn't mention only specific races, genders or religions... etc
I agree that we disagree and it is just fine... I know my position is in the minority...


But... very interesting to read.... I was wrong in the information of protecting whites... I still don't know how many prosecuted, but there are ones being reported...

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Uniform Crime Reports

Go to the hate crime section and pick a year... have to drill down a bit, but this is the reported hate crimes...
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:28 PM   #138
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You mention the race of the victim and the perpetrator and yet you believe, given our society's racial problems, that the jury you served on did not consider the racial elements of the case in rendering its decision. I'm sorry but I find that incredulous -- in my years on this planet, I have never come across 12 or 7 randomly selected people in this Country who do not exhibit some degree of racial prejudice -- I wish it weren't so, but we are far from achieving the ideal of a racially neutral society. Unconsciously, I suspect, your jury did consider the racial aspects of the victim and defendant -- and I bet the prosecutor strategically played that racial card; he didn't need to ask for enhanced or aggravated circumstances because a jury, especially one sympathetic to the victim, would intuitively take that into account.

These hate crimes do protect "us," you just have to start thinking of "me" as "we." "We" are all collectively hurt by these crimes. There are difficult cases of prosecuting "hate crimes" but we generally know a hate crime when we see it, such as the vandalism and burning cross at the home of the black family that just moved into the neighborhood. Keep studying those laws and you'll recognize that they express the collective will of the community.

I mention it because someone on the jury had asked why it was not a hate crime... I am sure there were some people that wanted to give the guy a harsher sentence because he was black... but there were also some who felt because he was brought up in poverty and no father etc that he should get a break... as a jury you have to compromise on something that all think it fair... and I would bet that if the guy was white, he still would have gotten the same sentence... almost all thought that he was trying to kill the girl... so we were harsh on him... and in fact she was still having some operations from her injuries a year later and they were life threatening.
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Old 09-03-2007, 10:34 PM   #139
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I would bet that if the guy was white, he still would have gotten the same sentence... almost all thought that he was trying to kill the girl... so we were harsh on him... and in fact she was still having some operations from her injuries a year later and they were life threatening.
And I would bet, given our history of racial inequality and bias, that you all gave him a harsher sentence because he was black and the victim was white! In the mind of that juror who asked the question, it became a "hate crime" and I bet once it got raised, other people began to think of it as a hate crime. I haven't had the privilege of sitting on a jury yet, but juries frequently take into account things that shouldn't be taken into account, legally, even with the most strident instructions from a Judge -- it's just human nature for people to plainly consider things that their human experiences tell them to consider, like race or gender.
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Old 09-03-2007, 10:40 PM   #140
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And I would bet, given our history of racial inequality and bias, that you all gave him a harsher sentence because he was black and the victim was white!
You are willing to "bet" even though you were not there, and know nothing about the people involved or the crime.

I think we see some bias operating right here and now!

Ha
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