Senator Craig: Guilty or Entrapped?

Senator Craig Guilty or Entrapped?

I guess that the poor devil known as Craig is reconsidering his resignation.

It serves the Republican Party RIGHT for throwing the poor devil under the bus and then forcing him to RESIGN.

Hey, if the Republican Party is willing to put up with that mangy varmit Old George W's lies, half truths and with him being an incompetent DUFUS on the Iraq War, than why can't this poor devil be a member (in good standing) of the Grand Old Republican Party.>:D


I guess that this poor devil might just have the last laugh.:cool::D
 
I worked for a guy once who was a bathhouse/men’s room cruiser. Not for him committed relationships. Some of his exploits were amazing. It was also true that you couldn't find a fairer or more helpful friend or boss.

I think we should leave people's sex lives alone, gay or straight, "committed” or casual, down the middle or on the edges.


Ha
 
I worked for a guy once who was a bathhouse/men’s room cruiser. Not for him committed relationships. Some of his exploits were amazing. It was also true that you couldn't find a fairer or more helpful friend or boss.

I think we should leave people's sex lives alone, gay or straight, "committed” or casual, down the middle or on the edges.


Ha

Ha,

I agree with you up until the point that it is someone who can make laws and runs on one thing and is another...

Now, if he never was spouting the anti-gay line, and his votes were his convictions instead of the party line... I would give the guy a break... but then again, for a politician maybe not...


As one of my old bosses pointed out, if a guy is willing to easily LIE to his wife, what would make him more honest at work??

Hmmmm, maybe talked myself out of agreeing...
 
Well, my Boss was out, not lying to anyone, though not necessarily shouting from the rooftops either.

Still, I believe it is moralistic and unattractive to out people who for whatever reason have not done that themselves. His votes were hypocritical, but what politician's are not? Politics is institutionalized lying and hypocrisy.

I'd rather be lied to about sex habits than about WMDs in Iraq.

Ha
 
When I first heard about this story, I thought "great! another Republican hypocrite gets his just deserts."

Had a little back & forth with Right Wing Sis who serially repeated the talking points: conspiracy plot to out Craig; innocent due to wide stance and picking toilet paper up off the floor (yeah, right - we all do that, don't we?); not a hypocrite 'cause he really really believes gays are not deserving of equal rights (the WSJ editorial line). And I said soorrrrreeeeeeyyyy -- busted! Hoisted on his own petard.

Then the more I looked into it, the sadder and more complex the whole thing became. Though there's been a lot of public commentary on Craig's situation, none that I've read mentions the fact that before the Supreme Court decision in 2003, in Idaho (as in TX), sodomitical acts were punishable by jail terms of 5 years to life. (That's right, no maximum penalty in Idaho.) We are talking about just four years ago! While the statute may not have been applied all that recently, there was still a case in the 1990s of a guy being sentenced to 5-12 years in jail. For consensual gay sex in Idaho.

Now, more interesting, apparently there were rulings about the assumption of privacy in restroom stalls. So (theoretically- I'm not a legal scholar) you have a sort of loophole situation in which the only (or at least "a") legal and safe place in Idaho, for Craig to have had sex prior to 2003 was IN a bathroom stall.

That's some catch, that Catch-22!

The History of Sodomy Laws in the United States - Idaho

As for the "gay witch hunt" aspect.. there is an element of that, and I completely understand LG4NB's analogy to hetero pick-ups. It's possible (however unlikely) that a bathroom hook-up could lead to a couple of guys getting a room. It's about 100% unlikely in Craig's case since the risk of exposure and recognition would be too great; he can't just go on a "date", he's got to go for the anonymous deal, having sold his soul to the R party. There is a public interest in limiting public sex of any flavor, and I also understand why officers need to do stings, though it would have been better in this case to have based an arrest on a more overt, documentable proposition. Thanks, Leonidas, for the thoughtful explanation of the cop's-eye view.

Through all this, I cast my mind back to the 1980s and Gerry Studds, caught finagling consensually with a 17 y.o. male congressional page. There was scandal, and censure by a Dem majority House and he was stripped of some committee position(s?). I think that was the correct response, as they focused on the inappropriate boss/subordinate aspect. Studds did NOT resign and went on to get re-elected six times because what he'd done (though inappropriate) didn't create a stampede for the exits among his constituents; they knew he was gay.. and he wasn't agitating for laws that would purge gays from public life (like Jim West, for example) or limit their rights (like Foley, Craig, et al.)!!

If these guys were Democrats, maybe the same would apply to them: misuse your power, get censured; modify your ways and your choice of gay companions/venues and live to fight another day. Studds died last year at 69 but managed to marry his longtime partner in 2004, the first week gay marriage was legal in MA. He was in his mid-sixties! Isn't that a happy ending?

There are people today who are still angry about that 2003 Supreme Ct. decision. They would like to see a conservative supermajority on a Court that would revisit it. If counted among the people working to bring this about are closeted gay Republicans, I can see why some might think they are fair game. I feel sorry for Craig in a way.. BUT these people had a very nice run indeed with the power and money and perks while it lasted. These would never have accrued to them had they been honest. There are essentially zero "out" Republican politicians, and even speaking as a Democrat I happen to think that is a bad thing for the R party.

Are the laws/reactions more severe for homosexuals? Sure, but Craig & co. are the very people who work to make and keep them that way. They made the bed, so they should now lie in it.. should they get a free pass? Who I feel sorry for most are the families that in some cases have been deluded, less sympathy for the constituents and parishioners defrauded.

The breaking news is that apparently Craig is reconsidering his resignation decision. It will be interesting to see how it plays out for the Republican spinmeisters. (Have no fear, there'll be lip-service -sorry!-to new-found "tolerance", etc.) It may well all blow over and be forgotten in the IOKIYOR mold. The cognitive dissonance will remain, slightly scuffed, but undefeated and perhaps even amplified. These people believe what they want to believe; they've got their "alternative reality" all set up for pretty much any circumstance you want to throw at them. Trust me; I'm related to one of them.
 
And you would lose the bet....

Since you were not in the jury.... I can tell you it never came up... we had I think 5 blacks on the jury and thier sentences were about the same spread as the whites.... the difference was in the women and men... the women thought we should give the guy a break since he had such a bad childhood... the men were 'that could have been my wife or daughter' and wanted to put the guy away for as long as possible... one of the blacks wanted to give the guy LIFE...

The question was asked AFTER all was said and done... they can not talk to us until we give the sentence...


Edited to add.... I said I am sure there were some that took into account he was black only because of prejudice.... I did not SEE or HEAR anythin in the jury room to support this... but by nature someone must have been thinking it... but I can say that the guy did not get any more of a sentence because he was black with 100% certainty...

Well in this case, i think you both have merit.

If you look at the stats on rape - it shows glaring disparities on the rate of rape vs. the rate of harsh sentencing by race. I chose rape stats because it is the most inflamed and potential for bias to show itself...

the U of NC shows these stats:
<<In 93% of assaults, the rapist and survivor are of the same race. In 3.3% of sexual assault cases, black men raped white women, while in 3.4% of the cases, white men
raped black women (Tjaden, 2006).
North Carolina State Women's Center

Yet, when an academic looked at the # of death sentences given for rape, over 80 percent were given to black men, mostly for cases where a white woman was involved. (Tong, 1998)

Also, black women are victims of sexual violence at a much higher rate (about 20% vs 8% for white women) but have a much harder time getting justice. Regardless of the assailant's race, cases where black women are the victim often receive a lesser sentence. (Robinson, 2003) many people also note that there hadn't been a single conviction of a white male for rape of a black female in the south (there may have been one since the millenium, but not through the 20th century)

So.... given the stats and history Chris is right to believe it is unlikely that race didn't play a role -spoken or unspoken...and it has also been shown that black people can have a negative image/view of black people as well since we are all ingrained with various prejudices living in this country.

knowing all these things can give you a headache when trying to try each case on an individual basis and perhaps lead to some of the headaches surrounding the Duke case.

To bring this back round to the OP, i think that part of the reason there are minimum sentences tied to hate crimes is because of the inability of american jury's to prosecute certain crimes somewhat equally because of bias.
 
I was not gonna respond anymore to this thread regarding race since I thought that the last statement made by Texas Proud actually proved my point. Besides, I thought the reference to 5 black people on the jury might make the presence of racial considerations less prominent in the decision-making process, but this presence does not make the decison-making in the minds of each of the 12 people "race neutral." Moreover, black-on-black racism has been around a long time in our society -- being black in our society doesn't innoculate you from being a bigot against other blacks.

Thanks for the statistics Bright Eye, however, intuitively we can all see the glaring differences that race has in our criminal justice system and there has been a lot of scholarly written commentary about this matter. You can take the simple case of cocaine possession: Possession and trafficking of crack cocaine possession carries a heavier sentence than possession and trafficking of powder cocaine -- it does matter that there might be legitimate non-racial reasons for the disparate sentencing -- though I can't really figure that one out. And it has been well documented for many years that blacks get sentenced to death for capital offenses in far greater numbers and in greater proportion than similarly situated whites.

Given my own personal experience and baggage, I look at these black on white incidents and never rule out the possibility that race is a factor. It doesn't mean I believe OJ was innocent (or that Mark Furhman planted evidence), but it leads me to think, initially, that **** can get out of whack in these situations because of race. I think it's best to have some clouded vision than no vision at all, or assume that everything is operating in a color-blind fashion.
 
Thanks for the statistics Bright Eye, however, intuitively we can all see the glaring differences that race has in our criminal justice system and there has been a lot of scholarly written commentary about this matter.

unfortunately, i don't think it's intuitive for too many people and some of the stats even boggle my mind after having seen similar ones for various issues over the years...just take the general news media and how they often forget to use a little bit of data in their reports...it would help give some context to how stories are told and understood...
 
Yet, when an academic looked at the # of death sentences given for rape, over 80 percent were given to black men, mostly for cases where a white woman was involved. (Tong, 1998)

Bright Eyed,
This factoid caught my eye, but I couldn't find your source to do more research. "(Tong, 1990?)". I've got two questions on this:
1) Did the study determine whether/how much of the disproportionate rate of death sentences for black rapists was attributable to economic status? Poor people (black or white) do not get the quality of legal representation that wealthier people get, and blacks are disproportionately poor. I would guess there's a lot more similarity between the death penalty rates for poor white rapists and poor black rapists than between poor black rapists and rich black rapists.
2) Regarding the race of the victim and a higher proportion of death penalties: Did the study control for the relationship between the perpetrator and the victim? In general, rapes of spouses/ex spouses/girlfriends/etc are less likely to draw a death penalty than rape of a stranger. Both black and white men are more likely to date/marry within race. If they commit a rape of a stranger, the odds (not considering "opportunity issues") would say a black man (or a white man) is more likely to rape a white woman than a black woman (since there are approx 7x as many of them).

Can you point me toward your source?
 
ChrisC.... I don't see where anything I said proved your point that he got a heavier sentence because he was black... I stated that he did not clearly...

And how would you 'square' your thoughts on the 45 years we gave the white guy who was driving drunk (or course, a different jury).. did not kill anyone, in fact, was just pulled over driving drunk... but he had a prior felony, a prior DWI and was charged with felony DWI... did race figure into his 'light' sentence?? (BTW, it was after we found him guilty that we found out he had over 30 plea deals and had spent half his life in prison...)...

Now, the 'stats' might show that blacks get the raw end of the deal in aggregate... but none of the juries I have been on did race come up at all in deliberations... and since I did not base my decisions on it... well.. I stand by my statement...

Of course, you already know that you are right... so be it...
 
Bright Eyed,
This factoid caught my eye, but I couldn't find your source to do more research. "(Tong, 1990?)". I've got two questions on this:
1) Did the study determine whether/how much of the disproportionate rate of death sentences for black rapists was attributable to economic status? Poor people (black or white) do not get the quality of legal representation that wealthier people get, and blacks are disproportionately poor. I would guess there's a lot more similarity between the death penalty rates for poor white rapists and poor black rapists than between poor black rapists and rich black rapists.
2) Regarding the race of the victim and a higher proportion of death penalties: Did the study control for the relationship between the perpetrator and the victim? In general, rapes of spouses/ex spouses/girlfriends/etc are less likely to draw a death penalty than rape of a stranger. Both black and white men are more likely to date/marry within race. If they commit a rape of a stranger, the odds (not considering "opportunity issues") would say a black man (or a white man) is more likely to rape a white woman than a black woman (since there are approx 7x as many of them).

Can you point me toward your source?

Sorry, i couldn't get that weird emoticon out of the Date...the source is this book, Feminist Thought: A Comprehensive Introduction...from 1998...i found several sources that said the same thing though, that book had more detail...

here's better info...from Amnesty:
The US Supreme Court outlawed the death penalty for the rape of an adult woman in 1977 in Coker v Georgia on the grounds of disproportionality. It did not mention race in its decision, even though five years earlier, in the ruling (Furman v Georgia) which overturned all death penalty laws in the USA, Justice Marshall noted that of the 455 executions for rape since 1930, 405 (89%) were of blacks. In the vast majority of cases the rape victim was a white woman.

I didn't know that was why the death penalty was pulled off the table for rape convictions...even more compelling....

i don't think you can overcome an 89% bias...for any factor - income, etc...maybe if it was a 60/40 or something split you could argue other factors.

As for your second question...all the sources i found only make a general reference to the fact that in "the majority" of the cases the victim was white...so no relationship is discussed.

but again, if you look at the stats that UNC posted about the actual incidence of rape across races (around 3%) and then the conviction rate and severity of the penalties...you see the bias...(or at least me and the supreme court :D)...
 
From the Borowitz Report: http://www.borowitzreport.com/

Craig: I Will Not Blow This Job
Idaho Senator Withdraws Resignation

Less than one week after announcing his intention to resign from office, embattled Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) changed course today, telling reporters in Washington, “I will not blow this job.”

Over the past few days, there had been whispers in Republican circles that Sen. Craig had, in the words of one of the Idaho senator’s associates, “pulled out too early,”

“At the end of the day, Larry does not want to blow this job,” the associate said. “He will do whatever it takes to win back the support of his constituents, even if it means getting down on his knees.”

Another associate of Sen. Craig’s agreed that the Idaho senator announced his intention to vacate his Senate seat too hastily: “I think Larry now feels that to leave office on September 30 would be a premature evacuation.”

Sen. Craig got a key vote of support from Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Penn), who held a press conference at the Senate today to call the charges against the Idaho senator a “bum rap.”

But even as Sen. Craig picked up the support of Sen. Specter, a source close to the Republican caucus indicated that most Republicans are “backing away” from Sen. Craig.

For his part, Sen. Craig told reporters that he would take whatever steps are necessary to find favor with his Republican colleagues: “I will absolutely bend over backwards.”
 
Edited to add.... I said I am sure there were some that took into account he was black only because of prejudice.... I did not SEE or HEAR anythin in the jury room to support this... but by nature someone must have been thinking it... but I can say that the guy did not get any more of a sentence because he was black with 100% certainty...

Texas Proud,

Did you not say that "by nature someone must have been thinking it" but yet your were 100 percent certain that the guy did not get any more of a sentence because he was black." You speak with a forked tongue Texas Proud when you say that someone was thinking that and yet you believe that person was able to discount the entire situation. Yes, I wasn't there, but you tell me that people are thinking this and yet ya so certain they are able to wipe their thoughts away.

I'm not pigheaded about being right or wrong; if it makes you feel better, I'll concede everything you have said in your posts.
 
Texas Proud,

Did you not say that "by nature someone must have been thinking it" but yet your were 100 percent certain that the guy did not get any more of a sentence because he was black." You speak with a forked tongue Texas Proud when you say that someone was thinking that and yet you believe that person was able to discount the entire situation. Yes, I wasn't there, but you tell me that people are thinking this and yet ya so certain they are able to wipe their thoughts away.

I'm not pigheaded about being right or wrong; if it makes you feel better, I'll concede everything you have said in your posts.

Yes, I conceeded to you that there was probably someone in the jury that had the thoughts that you seem to put to the whole jury... so be it... but the sentence is a consensus of all 12 so even if ONE or TWO were thinking it and voting to have a longer sentence the others were not and they would have to adjust. The minimum the guy could get was 20 years... the maximum was 99 or life... on the first vote, there were 3 low, 4 high and the rest in the middle...

And then people talk of why they think thier sentence is 'correct'.. and you move to a consensus... so, yes, I say his sentence would have been the same if he was white and the girl was black... 100% confident.. no forked tounge even though you seem to see one...

I will say that I was one of the long sentences and held out for as much as I could.. but not because he was black, but because of the crime... you do NOT want me on a jury if you are guilty, but you do want me if there is a weak case or the prosecutor makes a error...

And as I said, I was on a jury that gave a white guy 45 years for DWI... we can be harsh down here... (which I guess is another reason NOT to come to Texas... note REWahoo)....
 
And as I said, I was on a jury that gave a white guy 45 years for DWI... we can be harsh down here... (which I guess is another reason NOT to come to Texas... note REWahoo)....

Texas Proud, after this post I'm sure, quite sure, you will respond to this one as you will undoubtedly want to have the last word on this topic. I say, in jest, that your statement above and another one you made about sentencing this white guy to a harsh sentence proves absolutely nothing -- I'm fairly confident had this guy been black, he would have been given 50 years for the DWI charge! And as we say in the Old Dominion, "I might be crackin but I'm fackin."
l
 
Texas Proud, after this post I'm sure, quite sure, you will respond to this one as you will undoubtedly want to have the last word on this topic. I say, in jest, that your statement above and another one you made about sentencing this white guy to a harsh sentence proves absolutely nothing -- I'm fairly confident had this guy been black, he would have been given 50 years for the DWI charge! And as we say in the Old Dominion, "I might be crackin but I'm fackin."
l

ChrisC....

You are absolutely right... I have been hiding my true colors and we would have given the death penalty to this guy if he was black.... heck, we might have shot him right then and there if we could have...

I have no clue as to what happened in the jury room (even though I was jury foreman on both of them) and you know all.... I bow to you greater knowledge...
 
Why is this a weird twist? This goes to the heart of the ACLU, according to part of the brief,
"Since the law the state has applied to this defendant makes it a crime to use offensive language, and since the use of offensive language alone cannot be made a crime, the law is unconstitutionally overbroad on its face," the ACLU claims in its amici curiae brief.

Furthermore Per ACLU:
Majority power is limited by the Constitution's Bill of Rights, which consists of the original ten amendments ratified in 1791, plus the three post-Civil War amendments (the 13th, 14th and 15th) and the 19th Amendment (women's suffrage), adopted in 1920.
The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:
  • Your First Amendment rights - freedom of speech, association and assembly; freedom of the press, and freedom of religion.
  • Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.
  • Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.
  • Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.
We work also to extend rights to segments of our population that have traditionally been denied their rights, including Native Americans and other people of color; lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgender people; women; mental-health patients; prisoners; people with disabilities; and the poor.
If the rights of society's most vulnerable members are denied, everybody's rights are imperiled.

This is what is missed by too many concerning the ACLU, they are fighting for the LAW, not for a specific person.

Please note: I am not trying to say Craig is or is not hypocritical or innocent or guilty. But I think it is important that people try to understand the ACLU's efforts - they are trying to preserve the rights of individuals under the Constitution.
 
Why is this a weird twist? ..........

I think it is a weird twist because Craig would have been the last one to admit any support for the ACLU, prior to this incident.
 
Senator Craig - Guilty or Entrapped?

F-One thank you for the information on the ACLU.

As for the ACLU representing the poor devil known as Craig I am glad that somebody is looking out for his rights. The Republican Party was very quick to throw this poor devil under the bus and then they forced him to resign.

In the end the poor devil deserved better then what he got from the Republican party. Where was the loyalty and compassion?
 
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