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Old 09-04-2007, 08:27 AM   #141
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i suppose there are no humping heterosexuals engaged in public sex on fort lauderdale beach at night. or in a car at your local mall. why aren't they getting arrested?
Good point............
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:30 AM   #142
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Bottom line, if he wasn't a REPUBLICAN SENATOR, he would not be as "toast" as you might think.......
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:35 AM   #143
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You are willing to "bet" even though you were not there, and know nothing about the people involved or the crime.

I think we see some bias operating right here and now!

Ha
The odds favor my bet even though I don't know the people involved or the crime. I know enough about black on white crime, harsher sentences meted out, and the little information mentioned in the posts to wager my bet, and nothing was said in the prior posts to counteract my own "bias" -- other than assurances that the jurors didn't take race into account -- when it made its decision. I find that incredulous, especially since it was mentioned by Texas Proud in his own post that he was sure "there were some people that wanted to give the guy a harsher sentence because he was black."

Being bias about some things aint all that bad, as you appear to suggest, if you recognize it, maintain an open mind, and when your bias can evaporate when faced with countervailing opinions and facts.
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:56 AM   #144
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Bottom line, if he wasn't a REPUBLICAN SENATOR, he would not be as "toast" as you might think.......
Actually, I think its more like:

"Bottom line, if he wasn't a hypocritical piece of siht, he would not be as toast as you might think."
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:07 AM   #145
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Actually, I think its more like:

"Bottom line, if he wasn't a hypocritical piece of siht, he would not be as toast as you might think."
Could be..........but if his last name was Kennedy, he'd get a total "pass"..........
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:11 AM   #146
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Could be..........but if his last name was Kennedy, he'd get a total "pass"..........
Whatever Rush says...


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Old 09-04-2007, 09:27 AM   #147
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Being bias about some things aint all that bad, as you appear to suggest, if you recognize it, maintain an open mind, and when your bias can evaporate when faced with countervailing opinions and facts.
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:41 AM   #148
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Whatever Rush says...
I don't listen to Rush.........maybe he's stealing my "stuff".........
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Old 09-04-2007, 01:28 PM   #149
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Good point............
ya, well, the only difference being that they complain about us because they find us disgusting. though we see the same thing with them only we don't complain to the cops because we find them amusing.
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Old 09-04-2007, 02:31 PM   #150
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And I would bet, given our history of racial inequality and bias, that you all gave him a harsher sentence because he was black and the victim was white! In the mind of that juror who asked the question, it became a "hate crime" and I bet once it got raised, other people began to think of it as a hate crime. I haven't had the privilege of sitting on a jury yet, but juries frequently take into account things that shouldn't be taken into account, legally, even with the most strident instructions from a Judge -- it's just human nature for people to plainly consider things that their human experiences tell them to consider, like race or gender.
And you would lose the bet....

Since you were not in the jury.... I can tell you it never came up... we had I think 5 blacks on the jury and thier sentences were about the same spread as the whites.... the difference was in the women and men... the women thought we should give the guy a break since he had such a bad childhood... the men were 'that could have been my wife or daughter' and wanted to put the guy away for as long as possible... one of the blacks wanted to give the guy LIFE...

The question was asked AFTER all was said and done... they can not talk to us until we give the sentence...


Edited to add.... I said I am sure there were some that took into account he was black only because of prejudice.... I did not SEE or HEAR anythin in the jury room to support this... but by nature someone must have been thinking it... but I can say that the guy did not get any more of a sentence because he was black with 100% certainty...
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Senator Craig Guilty or Entrapped?
Old 09-04-2007, 08:44 PM   #151
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Senator Craig Guilty or Entrapped?

I guess that the poor devil known as Craig is reconsidering his resignation.

It serves the Republican Party RIGHT for throwing the poor devil under the bus and then forcing him to RESIGN.

Hey, if the Republican Party is willing to put up with that mangy varmit Old George W's lies, half truths and with him being an incompetent DUFUS on the Iraq War, than why can't this poor devil be a member (in good standing) of the Grand Old Republican Party.


I guess that this poor devil might just have the last laugh.
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:05 PM   #152
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I worked for a guy once who was a bathhouse/men’s room cruiser. Not for him committed relationships. Some of his exploits were amazing. It was also true that you couldn't find a fairer or more helpful friend or boss.

I think we should leave people's sex lives alone, gay or straight, "committed” or casual, down the middle or on the edges.


Ha
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Old 09-04-2007, 11:24 PM   #153
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I worked for a guy once who was a bathhouse/men’s room cruiser. Not for him committed relationships. Some of his exploits were amazing. It was also true that you couldn't find a fairer or more helpful friend or boss.

I think we should leave people's sex lives alone, gay or straight, "committed” or casual, down the middle or on the edges.


Ha
Ha,

I agree with you up until the point that it is someone who can make laws and runs on one thing and is another...

Now, if he never was spouting the anti-gay line, and his votes were his convictions instead of the party line... I would give the guy a break... but then again, for a politician maybe not...


As one of my old bosses pointed out, if a guy is willing to easily LIE to his wife, what would make him more honest at work??

Hmmmm, maybe talked myself out of agreeing...
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Old 09-05-2007, 12:08 AM   #154
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Well, my Boss was out, not lying to anyone, though not necessarily shouting from the rooftops either.

Still, I believe it is moralistic and unattractive to out people who for whatever reason have not done that themselves. His votes were hypocritical, but what politician's are not? Politics is institutionalized lying and hypocrisy.

I'd rather be lied to about sex habits than about WMDs in Iraq.

Ha
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Old 09-05-2007, 12:16 AM   #155
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Politics is institutionalized lying and hypocrisy.
Yep. You're a smart, intuitive guy Ha.
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Old 09-05-2007, 05:11 AM   #156
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When I first heard about this story, I thought "great! another Republican hypocrite gets his just deserts."

Had a little back & forth with Right Wing Sis who serially repeated the talking points: conspiracy plot to out Craig; innocent due to wide stance and picking toilet paper up off the floor (yeah, right - we all do that, don't we?); not a hypocrite 'cause he really really believes gays are not deserving of equal rights (the WSJ editorial line). And I said soorrrrreeeeeeyyyy -- busted! Hoisted on his own petard.

Then the more I looked into it, the sadder and more complex the whole thing became. Though there's been a lot of public commentary on Craig's situation, none that I've read mentions the fact that before the Supreme Court decision in 2003, in Idaho (as in TX), sodomitical acts were punishable by jail terms of 5 years to life. (That's right, no maximum penalty in Idaho.) We are talking about just four years ago! While the statute may not have been applied all that recently, there was still a case in the 1990s of a guy being sentenced to 5-12 years in jail. For consensual gay sex in Idaho.

Now, more interesting, apparently there were rulings about the assumption of privacy in restroom stalls. So (theoretically- I'm not a legal scholar) you have a sort of loophole situation in which the only (or at least "a") legal and safe place in Idaho, for Craig to have had sex prior to 2003 was IN a bathroom stall.

That's some catch, that Catch-22!

The History of Sodomy Laws in the United States - Idaho

As for the "gay witch hunt" aspect.. there is an element of that, and I completely understand LG4NB's analogy to hetero pick-ups. It's possible (however unlikely) that a bathroom hook-up could lead to a couple of guys getting a room. It's about 100% unlikely in Craig's case since the risk of exposure and recognition would be too great; he can't just go on a "date", he's got to go for the anonymous deal, having sold his soul to the R party. There is a public interest in limiting public sex of any flavor, and I also understand why officers need to do stings, though it would have been better in this case to have based an arrest on a more overt, documentable proposition. Thanks, Leonidas, for the thoughtful explanation of the cop's-eye view.

Through all this, I cast my mind back to the 1980s and Gerry Studds, caught finagling consensually with a 17 y.o. male congressional page. There was scandal, and censure by a Dem majority House and he was stripped of some committee position(s?). I think that was the correct response, as they focused on the inappropriate boss/subordinate aspect. Studds did NOT resign and went on to get re-elected six times because what he'd done (though inappropriate) didn't create a stampede for the exits among his constituents; they knew he was gay.. and he wasn't agitating for laws that would purge gays from public life (like Jim West, for example) or limit their rights (like Foley, Craig, et al.)!!

If these guys were Democrats, maybe the same would apply to them: misuse your power, get censured; modify your ways and your choice of gay companions/venues and live to fight another day. Studds died last year at 69 but managed to marry his longtime partner in 2004, the first week gay marriage was legal in MA. He was in his mid-sixties! Isn't that a happy ending?

There are people today who are still angry about that 2003 Supreme Ct. decision. They would like to see a conservative supermajority on a Court that would revisit it. If counted among the people working to bring this about are closeted gay Republicans, I can see why some might think they are fair game. I feel sorry for Craig in a way.. BUT these people had a very nice run indeed with the power and money and perks while it lasted. These would never have accrued to them had they been honest. There are essentially zero "out" Republican politicians, and even speaking as a Democrat I happen to think that is a bad thing for the R party.

Are the laws/reactions more severe for homosexuals? Sure, but Craig & co. are the very people who work to make and keep them that way. They made the bed, so they should now lie in it.. should they get a free pass? Who I feel sorry for most are the families that in some cases have been deluded, less sympathy for the constituents and parishioners defrauded.

The breaking news is that apparently Craig is reconsidering his resignation decision. It will be interesting to see how it plays out for the Republican spinmeisters. (Have no fear, there'll be lip-service -sorry!-to new-found "tolerance", etc.) It may well all blow over and be forgotten in the IOKIYOR mold. The cognitive dissonance will remain, slightly scuffed, but undefeated and perhaps even amplified. These people believe what they want to believe; they've got their "alternative reality" all set up for pretty much any circumstance you want to throw at them. Trust me; I'm related to one of them.
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Old 09-05-2007, 01:15 PM   #157
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And you would lose the bet....

Since you were not in the jury.... I can tell you it never came up... we had I think 5 blacks on the jury and thier sentences were about the same spread as the whites.... the difference was in the women and men... the women thought we should give the guy a break since he had such a bad childhood... the men were 'that could have been my wife or daughter' and wanted to put the guy away for as long as possible... one of the blacks wanted to give the guy LIFE...

The question was asked AFTER all was said and done... they can not talk to us until we give the sentence...


Edited to add.... I said I am sure there were some that took into account he was black only because of prejudice.... I did not SEE or HEAR anythin in the jury room to support this... but by nature someone must have been thinking it... but I can say that the guy did not get any more of a sentence because he was black with 100% certainty...
Well in this case, i think you both have merit.

If you look at the stats on rape - it shows glaring disparities on the rate of rape vs. the rate of harsh sentencing by race. I chose rape stats because it is the most inflamed and potential for bias to show itself...

the U of NC shows these stats:
<<In 93% of assaults, the rapist and survivor are of the same race. In 3.3% of sexual assault cases, black men raped white women, while in 3.4% of the cases, white men
raped black women (Tjaden, 2006).
North Carolina State Women's Center

Yet, when an academic looked at the # of death sentences given for rape, over 80 percent were given to black men, mostly for cases where a white woman was involved. (Tong, 1998)

Also, black women are victims of sexual violence at a much higher rate (about 20% vs 8% for white women) but have a much harder time getting justice. Regardless of the assailant's race, cases where black women are the victim often receive a lesser sentence. (Robinson, 2003) many people also note that there hadn't been a single conviction of a white male for rape of a black female in the south (there may have been one since the millenium, but not through the 20th century)

So.... given the stats and history Chris is right to believe it is unlikely that race didn't play a role -spoken or unspoken...and it has also been shown that black people can have a negative image/view of black people as well since we are all ingrained with various prejudices living in this country.

knowing all these things can give you a headache when trying to try each case on an individual basis and perhaps lead to some of the headaches surrounding the Duke case.

To bring this back round to the OP, i think that part of the reason there are minimum sentences tied to hate crimes is because of the inability of american jury's to prosecute certain crimes somewhat equally because of bias.
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Old 09-05-2007, 05:40 PM   #158
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I was not gonna respond anymore to this thread regarding race since I thought that the last statement made by Texas Proud actually proved my point. Besides, I thought the reference to 5 black people on the jury might make the presence of racial considerations less prominent in the decision-making process, but this presence does not make the decison-making in the minds of each of the 12 people "race neutral." Moreover, black-on-black racism has been around a long time in our society -- being black in our society doesn't innoculate you from being a bigot against other blacks.

Thanks for the statistics Bright Eye, however, intuitively we can all see the glaring differences that race has in our criminal justice system and there has been a lot of scholarly written commentary about this matter. You can take the simple case of cocaine possession: Possession and trafficking of crack cocaine possession carries a heavier sentence than possession and trafficking of powder cocaine -- it does matter that there might be legitimate non-racial reasons for the disparate sentencing -- though I can't really figure that one out. And it has been well documented for many years that blacks get sentenced to death for capital offenses in far greater numbers and in greater proportion than similarly situated whites.

Given my own personal experience and baggage, I look at these black on white incidents and never rule out the possibility that race is a factor. It doesn't mean I believe OJ was innocent (or that Mark Furhman planted evidence), but it leads me to think, initially, that **** can get out of whack in these situations because of race. I think it's best to have some clouded vision than no vision at all, or assume that everything is operating in a color-blind fashion.
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Old 09-05-2007, 06:06 PM   #159
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Thanks for the statistics Bright Eye, however, intuitively we can all see the glaring differences that race has in our criminal justice system and there has been a lot of scholarly written commentary about this matter.
unfortunately, i don't think it's intuitive for too many people and some of the stats even boggle my mind after having seen similar ones for various issues over the years...just take the general news media and how they often forget to use a little bit of data in their reports...it would help give some context to how stories are told and understood...
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Old 09-05-2007, 10:16 PM   #160
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Yet, when an academic looked at the # of death sentences given for rape, over 80 percent were given to black men, mostly for cases where a white woman was involved. (Tong, 1998)
Bright Eyed,
This factoid caught my eye, but I couldn't find your source to do more research. "(Tong, 1990?)". I've got two questions on this:
1) Did the study determine whether/how much of the disproportionate rate of death sentences for black rapists was attributable to economic status? Poor people (black or white) do not get the quality of legal representation that wealthier people get, and blacks are disproportionately poor. I would guess there's a lot more similarity between the death penalty rates for poor white rapists and poor black rapists than between poor black rapists and rich black rapists.
2) Regarding the race of the victim and a higher proportion of death penalties: Did the study control for the relationship between the perpetrator and the victim? In general, rapes of spouses/ex spouses/girlfriends/etc are less likely to draw a death penalty than rape of a stranger. Both black and white men are more likely to date/marry within race. If they commit a rape of a stranger, the odds (not considering "opportunity issues") would say a black man (or a white man) is more likely to rape a white woman than a black woman (since there are approx 7x as many of them).

Can you point me toward your source?
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