Senator Craig: Guilty or Entrapped?

[lazygood4nothinbum]

leonidas, the only response i directed towards you dealt with gays being treated differently than str8s in society generally. i said nothing else in your specific direction. so i'm not real sure how to respond to everything you said here but i'll attempt to alleviate some paranoia if that helps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonidas I don’t believe we’ve ever met or interacted outside of this forum, so I’m not sure what you are basing that statement on, but it is not accurate. A search of my past post failed to turn up anything remotely dealing with same sex marriages. Just for the record, in 2005 I voted against a state constitutional amendment that prohibited same-sex marriages. I don’t think this is the thread to discuss my opinion on same sex marriages so I won’t go into the details here of why I voted as I did.

i also don't think we ever met unless that was you flashing that wedding ring under the partition that day. sorry that i never caught your name. i do appreciate your vote and i've much enjoyed a lot of what you've had to say on this forum. by the way, i've been gay at least all my life yet never even heard of that wedding ring thing until your post. live and learn i say.

Quote:

As for the second part of the quote above – I’m not sure what you mean. If you think that I ever engaged in some kind of anti-gay oppressive behavior then again you’re wrong.

and again, what i said about fish also had nothing to do with you. it had to do with a society which creates a problem and then blames the victim of the problem it creates for some other problem caused by the victim who is just trying to deal with the first problem. when you squeeze a water balloon, the water has got to go somewhere. when society prevents gays from kissing or holding hands in public, do not be so surprised that they wind up having sex behind partitions. even a good cop can wind up carrying out bad policy.

someone else mentioned that they approve of the bathroom stings against gays. well, has anyone ever set up such a sting against str8s? how about sending in a female cop to a bar along the beach, take the guy out to the beach and arrest him when he taps his foot. i don't buy for one second that the law is even handed in this. if it were, then why don't we see more reports of str8s being arrested. they outnumber us 10-fold. they are not having sex?

Quote:

As for the last part of the sentence it almost reads as if you are justifying people having sex in public places. If that is the case then it is utter nonsense. How can you justify the risk of exposing someone’s young child to seeing people having sex in a public restroom? And if you’re trying to say that gay men are forced to have random anonymous sex in public restrooms and that makes arresting them oppressive I call bullsh*t again. I’ve been undercover in certain gay clubs and hetero swingers bars and I know that there are people out there that like to have random anonymous sex with strangers – and some of them don’t care who sees them. But I also know that there are plenty of straights and gays who condemn the activity. I’m on their side. To me there is a simple solution – go get a room.

you are more than welcome to almost read anything into what you think i almost said. i find it fascinating how deeply homophobia runs through heterosexual blood that you (no leo, not you personally, rather the you of society at large) can not even see that you are part of the cause of the problem. and that for someone to bring that to your attention so readily elicits attack and misrepresentation.

Quote:

I’m still wondering when we ever met that you gained so much insight into how I did my job or how I think about things. Are you judging me based on cops you’ve interacted with, or stories other people have told you about their experiences? If that’s the case, then do I get to judge you as a gay man based on my experiences with different people halfway across the country who happen to be gay also? Do I get to climb inside your head and know what you’re thinking based on stories that someone has related to me about their experiences with gays? If you were painting with a wide brush because of the actions of other people that had/have the same occupation, I would have to wonder what category you would place all the gay and lesbian cops that I know. Are they being oppressive when they arrest a gay man for breaking the law? Ultimately I would have to reiterate that you don’t know me and have no basis in fact for making that kind of statement about me – other than what I contribute in this forum. Now, if you’re judging me on something that I’ve written here – please point me to the place where I wrote anything that sounds like the words you put in my mouth. The only thing I see remotely like what you said was maybe the “fish in a barrel” part. I did write about it being easy to arrest men who want to blatantly break the law by engaging in sex in public restrooms. In my career I also found it real easy to catch people who couldn’t obey the posted speed limit – I fail to see where either is oppressive, or morally/ethically suspect.

sorry bud, but as i already said, i don't even know where all that came from. the one thing that you think had to do with you, the fish in a barrel, had absolutely nothing to do with you. it had to do with society. i have no idea how you thought it did but certainly i will re-examine before i comment again where you have posted so that i can maybe make myself more clear to every single person who might ever read one of my posts. i keep trying to work on my powers of omniscience and well, i just keep screwing it up, don't i. i wasn't judging you; i wasn't judging what you do. i wasn't commenting on you personally. i was commenting on society in general. i didn't mean for you to take anything i said personally. however, if what i had to say about society has hit you so personally, well then, maybe that is something to consider.

[FIRE'd@51]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zipper In the USA you have to be a nutbag or a neonutbag to even have a chance at elected office. The "Red State Update" really sums up you guys down there.

Zipper, do you feel better now that you have insulted the Americans on this board with such an ignorant statement?

[Brat]

Drink a large glass of water, take a deep breath and exhale please!

I happen to agree that homosexuals deserve the same rights and responsibilities as heterosexuals. All this talk about "rights" when if folks would talk about responsibilities gay marriage (at least in the civil sense) might be a done deal.

At many levels Idaho is going through a transition. Ah, the funny stories I could tell about the demographic pressures (and I have never lived there).

Craig's behavior was inappropriate, probably illegal. He was proved a hippocrate. Enough said. No problem for me if Idahoans want him to serve out his term but I think the Republican party just wants him to go away.

Now, if I were his wife.. as earlier posted. Who knows what their arrangement could be.

[Zipper]

I am in agreement with the majority of Americans. You must be one of the nutbags.

I think you will find yourself in the minority on this one FIRE'd.

I think most Americans have had it with the chimp and the neocons.

Too bad he wasn't turfed earlier.

He is probably the worst leader you have had in living memory.

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem The problem is when people (either gay or straight) don't "hide their sexuality" enough. Having sex (or soliciting sex) in a public restroom is the exact opposite of "hiding your sexuality" and that's why Craig was arrested. Gays who are interested in having society in general accept homosexual relationships as equivalent to heterosexual relationships, especially regarding things like marriage, probably realize that gay men having sex in public restrooms (or in the library stacks) hurts their cause. Or maybe some of them are so interested in being seen as victims that they don't really know how to move their agenda forward in a rational way.

craig was arrested because there was a sting against men having sex with men, not because there was a sting against men having sex with women.

right, well, wasn't it in the neighboring state of wyoming where matthew shepard tried to be an openly gay man. i wonder if he would have been murdered in an airport bathroom.

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum someone else mentioned that they approve of the bathroom stings against gays. well, has anyone ever set up such a sting against str8s? how about sending in a female cop to a bar along the beach, take the guy out to the beach and arrest him when he taps his foot. i don't buy for one second that the law is even handed in this. if it were, then why don't we see more reports of str8s being arrested. they outnumber us 10-fold. they are not having sex?

AHHHH..... have you not watched COPS before.... there are many stings of female cops acting as prostitutes and arresting men... heck, I would bet that there are more people arrested that are straight then gay...

Don't get holier than thou about how beaten down gays are and not having 'human rights'... gays have more rights today than ever.... and BTW, why should someone who beats up a gay guy get a longer sentence than someone who beat me up This is the Hate Crime laws.... so I am being discriminated against!!!

Also, most all big companies allow for health care with 'life partners' and have rules protecting them over and above the 'regular folks' (again, I am being discriminated).. and there is nothing preventing gays from living together for life..

[lazygood4nothinbum]

ps leonides, while i had just glanced at your lengthy post, my first post was just whipping off a quick one liner to this thread, not in response to your post. i had set in my mind that i would come back to this thread and read your post when i had more time.

so again, where you seem to think my line was about you, be assured that i hadn't even yet read your post before i posted mine. and i had completely forgotten (forgive me), was not even thinking that you were a policeman in your previous life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum
i suppose there are no humping heterosexuals engaged in public sex on fort lauderdale beach at night. or in a car at your local mall. why aren't they getting arrested?

Quote:

My post would have been a lot longer if I had tried to address all the things I was anticipating that might come up - but while writing I did wonder if you would respond and what you might say. I'll answer in a bit more detail later, but I'll just say that we were equal opportunity when it came to arresting offenders but we respond to complaints. We got plenty of complaints about heterosexual activity (prostitution, pornography, sex in clubs, etc) and arrested them the same as anyone else.

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud AHHHH..... have you not watched COPS before.... there are many stings of female cops acting as prostitutes and arresting men... heck, I would bet that there are more people arrested that are straight then gay... Don't get holier than thou about how beaten down gays are and not having 'human rights'... gays have more rights today than ever.... and BTW, why should someone who beats up a gay guy get a longer sentence than someone who beat me up This is the Hate Crime laws.... so I am being discriminated against!!!

correct, i do not watch such programs but i love how it is repeated that men having sex with men is the same as men buying sex with women. and i'm not even making a moral judgement against that business transaction.

hardly holier than thou, i am ever so humble that in the last few 100 or 1000 years of building society that gays are finally allowed to marry in at least one state here and at least two countries there. ya gotta love progress. and just as i am not expecting complete acceptance after so many generations of practiced homophobia, it would be equally as irrational for str8s to expect a complete reversal of gay behavior in a day.

these people are afraid not just of losing their careers, not just their families; they are afraid of losing their lives. and they would take rather take a chance on a sting operation than being strung out to die tied to some rural fencing.

so tell me, are there many places where heterosexuals can be legally put to death just for being str8?

Homosexuality laws of the world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LGBT rights by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum and again, what i said about fish also had nothing to do with you. it had to do with a society which creates a problem and then blames the victim of the problem it creates for some other problem caused by the victim who is just trying to deal with the first problem. when you squeeze a water balloon, the water has got to go somewhere. when society prevents gays from kissing or holding hands in public, do not be so surprised that they wind up having sex behind partitions. even a good cop can wind up carrying out bad policy.

I think of some of my best lines after the debate has ended, but here goes.

LGFNB, I'm not going to attempt to put words in your mouth, but your comments give the impression that you feel gays have been coerced by society into seeking sex in men's bathrooms.

I wonder if perhaps a more appropriate analogy concerning gay sex in public bathrooms might be people's (gay, straight, bi, whatever) attempts to join the mile-high club. Each situation shares the common elements of semi-public sex with the illicit thrills of exhibitionism and retribution.

In other words, it's not a gay thing. It's not a heterosexual thing. It's a completely different sort of fetish. You & Leo could each be accused of being biased by your focus.

As for society's approbrium of sexual preferences, I've served with quite a few gay submariners-- probably a lot more than I was aware of. I think the submarine force needs more gays-- as well as more women, more African-Americans, more Hispanics & Native Americans & Pacific Islanders, and even (*gasp*) more Democrats.

Give 'em a little longer, REW, they're still working on the Texas initiative. Some cultural shifts just can't be accomplished overnight...

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords Give 'em a little longer, REW, they're still working on the Texas initiative. Some cultural shifts just can't be accomplished overnight...

Yep. Takes a long time to teach a Texan how to correctly pronounce newclear newquelar nucler some of them words.

[Eyerishgold]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum i suppose there are no humping heterosexuals engaged in public sex on fort lauderdale beach at night. or in a car at your local mall. why aren't they getting arrested?

I really have nothing of any value to add to this thread. I just like the term "humping heterosexuals".

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords In other words, it's not a gay thing. It's not a heterosexual thing. It's a completely different sort of fetish. You & Leo could each be accused of being biased by your focus

isn't the stall simply such a convenient metaphor for the (water) closet into which str8 society has over so many years through intimidation and even outright violence forced gays to dwell.

no doubt that even if and after gays have been integrated in a positive way into society that this will linger as fetish for some and vestige for others.

my point is not that people should be having sex in airport bathrooms, but thanx everyone for thinking so. for your too much information, i didn't even like it when my partner would fart in bed so the idea of arousal in a stall surrounded by 20 guys crapping and farting hardly turns me on.

my point is that the way this entire topic is being handled here and in the press does not deal with deeper issues which scar humanity. this is a witch hunt plain and simple. lets tie a rock onto the witch, throw him into the lake and if he floats to the surface it proves he's a witch and so we will burn him at the stake. this is nothing more than throwing another fag onto the fire and of the republicans purging another gay from their midths. all this talk of public sex and talk of the senator's hypocricy is little more than smoke which only rises to get in your eyes but does not reach down into the true depths of this problem.

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eyerishgold I really have nothing of any value to add to this thread. I just like the term "humping heterosexuals".

thanx eye, i've an ear for alliteration. here's another one:

the moral of this story is when in public office, don't be the poor sap who tapped while he crapped.

[bright eyed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum thanx eye, i've an ear for alliteration. here's another one: the moral of this story is when in public office, don't be the poor sap who tapped while he crapped.

lg4nb - i suspect your mom read lots of dr. seuss to you?

i definitely think the story would not be as contro if he was caught w/ a female intern in a bathroom...but i don't think it's just the fact that he's being forced out of the closet - but that he was so publicly against all things gay...if he hadn't been so vocal about his opposition to the lifestyle he secretly lived, then i think there would be a degree less controversy here...

but all in all, if he was caught engaged in some PDA or even something kinky - cheating on his wife w/ a woman, i think he would still have to resign, but with a lot less psychological trauma and could probably moved on relatively easily from this situation to become some sort of consultant etc. this will be hard to shake off, because homophobia is alive and quite well...

[ERD50]

OK, I don't think this viewpoint was covered (sort of by LG4NB):

I read the transcript, listened to the tape, and people are being arrested for appearing to signal that they want to have sex.

OK, I guess soliciting is against the law. But if a prostitute just signaled to you, would that be enough for an arrest? Don't they need to go a bit further than that before an arrest would be made?

To use LG4NB's analogy, if there was a pattern of hetros having sex on the beach, would you start arresting couples for making eye-contact in the bar near the beach? You know, 'cause the next thing is, they will agree to public consensual sex.

Lord help me if my keys or phone fall out of my pocket in a public wash room! Will I need to explain to the undercover guy that I was just reaching for my keys or phone? And why I used my left hand (with wedding ring) to do so? Will it appear easier to plead guilty than argue with him? This is kind of scary.

Hey, if there is a pattern of people having sex in public washrooms, it needs to be dealt with. An arrest based on an undercover agent (who is bored and does not want to be there in the first place) determination that your hand movements indicated a signal just seems a little weak.

-ERD50

[Brat]

When confronted he didn't behave like a person who didn't do what the Officer said he did. When my son was a teen and accused by me of improper behavior he would get indignant (although I still believed him guilty). There was quibbling about the details but no emotional energy expended to deny the essence of the charge. He plead guilty. He had more than ample opportunity to seek the advise of an attorney before doing so.

People who are public figures must assume that what they do may become common knowledge and act accordingly. When someone is what they publicly despise it is only a matter of time until they are exposed.

If Craig hadn't pushed an anti-gay agenda and had kept his behavior a private matter there wouldn't be such an uproar. Of course, he may not have been elected by Idahoans either.

If I were gay the comeuppance of such a hippocrate who made my life difficult would give me satisfaction.

[farmerEd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 OK, I don't think this viewpoint was covered (sort of by LG4NB): I read the transcript, listened to the tape, and people are being arrested for appearing to signal that they want to have sex. OK, I guess soliciting is against the law. But if a prostitute just signaled to you, would that be enough for an arrest? Don't they need to go a bit further than that before an arrest would be made? To use LG4NB's analogy, if there was a pattern of hetros having sex on the beach, would you start arresting couples for making eye-contact in the bar near the beach? You know, 'cause the next thing is, they will agree to public consensual sex. Lord help me if my keys or phone fall out of my pocket in a public wash room! Will I need to explain to the undercover guy that I was just reaching for my keys or phone? And why I used my left hand (with wedding ring) to do so? Will it appear easier to plead guilty than argue with him? This is kind of scary. Hey, if there is a pattern of people having sex in public washrooms, it needs to be dealt with. An arrest based on an undercover agent (who is bored and does not want to be there in the first place) determination that your hand movements indicated a signal just seems a little weak. -ERD50

The fact of the matter is that he pled guilty. All of your points are valid, misunderstanding, overzealous polic, weak evidence etc, but the time to make those assertions was at a trial (and with a lawyer). Once you plead guilty, its kind of late to complain about being treated unfairly or misunderstood. Does anyone really not believe he was there cruising for sex? I'm glad he's gone...not because he is gay, but because he is a liar and a hypocrite (which pretty much covers all politicians, but hey you gotta start somewhere...)

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum this is a witch hunt plain and simple. lets tie a rock onto the witch, throw him into the lake and if he floats to the surface it proves he's a witch and so we will burn him at the stake. this is nothing more than throwing another fag onto the fire and of the republicans purging another gay from their midths. all this talk of public sex and talk of the senator's hypocricy is little more than smoke which only rises to get in your eyes but does not reach down into the true depths of this problem.

Boy you are looking at this thing through you 'gay' lens....

I do not... and see no witch hunt at all... and then, I guess by your post YOU THINK HE IS GAY!!! Which is IIRC the original question was.


How many of these guys have been thrown out because they CHEATED on their wives A good number... (almost all repubs) I would bet that the guy would have the same problem keeping his office if he had met some woman in the restroom and was going to have sex with her... even if it was consentual (sp).... If you are being elected by spouting family values and you are not following them, you will be thrown under the bus...

If he was openly gay and NOT married, and had a 'regular' partner, I bet first he would not be elected as a Repub, but might be as a dem....

[brewer12345]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brat If I were gay the comeuppance of such a hippocrate who made my life difficult would give me satisfaction.

Maybe its because I ain't gay, but to me the most delicious part of this has been listening to the minority of far right radio talkshow hosts who have decided to stick by the good senator try to defend his behavior.

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Quote:

lg4nb - i suspect your mom read lots of dr. seuss to you?

well, yes, but my favorite was aesop's fables.

Quote:

if there was a pattern of hetros having sex on the beach, would you start arresting couples for making eye-contact in the bar near the beach? You know, 'cause the next thing is, they will agree to public consensual sex.

now magnify that in a world where you are afraid to make eye contact in public life because you might be outed or beaten up. i wonder how str8s would behave if they were not allowed to simply go up to each other and put on their moves. why, i suppose, you might be forced to take it to the closets.

Quote:

If I were gay the comeuppance of such a hippocrate who made my life difficult would give me satisfaction.

empathy always appreciated. though for me new pain neither covers nor removes old pain. it is just more pain.

Quote:

Boy you are looking at this thing through you 'gay' lens....

duh!

Quote:

I do not... and see no witch hunt at all... and then, I guess by your post YOU THINK HE IS GAY!!! Which is IIRC the original question was.

i have no idea if the guy is gay or not. but if he is then he sure did waste his best years. frankly, i coudn't give a rat's ass about some senator. it doesn't matter to me what he did. this is like watching the space shuttle from the ground with a naked eye instead of from your television set. in real life, you never see the shuttle, only the fire and the plume. sometimes the reaction says more than the action itself.

Quote:

The fact of the matter is that he pled guilty. All of your points are valid, misunderstanding, overzealous polic, weak evidence etc, but the time to make those assertions was at a trial (and with a lawyer). Once you plead guilty, its kind of late to complain about being treated unfairly or misunderstood. Does anyone really not believe he was there cruising for sex? I'm glad he's gone...not because he is gay, but because he is a liar and a hypocrite (which pretty much covers all politicians, but hey you gotta start somewhere...)

all true as far as i'm concerned. but i think what erd50 is arguing has less to do with the senator and more to do with the policy.

Quote:

Maybe its because I ain't gay, but to me the most delicious part of this has been listening to the minority of far right radio talkshow hosts who have decided to stick by the good senator try to defend his behavior.

hmmm. sounds like the humor is in the details. where did i put my telescope? hold that launch.