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Old 06-04-2016, 12:46 PM   #61
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People are entitled to their own opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts.
Well put! I'm going to use that quote!
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Old 06-04-2016, 05:50 PM   #62
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Well, speaking up might make you feel good, but it will have no effect.
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Old 06-05-2016, 08:02 AM   #63
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Well, speaking up might make you feel good, but it will have no effect.

Yeah, that...

Though I stay out of most political mash-ups, say on Facebook, it is frustrating to see so much misinformation being bandied about, by both sides of the spectrum. I have, on occasion, posted counterfactuals to the assorted nonsense, which is promptly ignored, or sometimes chastised as being mainstream media, bought-and-paid for research, or some other conspiratorial nonsense. Granted, even using the same "facts" can still result in disagreements over "solutions"...

I'd like to think that my opinions are grounded in a decent awareness of history, economics, science, etc., and that I am flexible enough to consider changing my view if a given POV makes more sense in some way, but in my experience, these discussions are similar to our so-called "debates", i.e. mostly soundbites of dubious accuracy or relevance. An actual debate requires study, preparation, and research. Most don't seem to have the attention span for anything longer than a soundbite, and don't seem willing to do any research. As we sometimes say on this very forum: LMGTFY...
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Old 06-05-2016, 08:35 AM   #64
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Well, speaking up might make you feel good, but it will have no effect.
Sometimes it shuts them up for a while. They may not change their mind, but sometimes shutting them up is enough. Rewarding fools with an audience often only encourages them to continue.
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Old 06-05-2016, 08:50 AM   #65
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Well put! I'm going to use that quote!
Faith & Begorrah, and wasn't it Daniel Patrick Moynihan hisself who was after saying that.
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Old 06-05-2016, 09:21 AM   #66
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People are entitled to their own opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts.
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Well put! I'm going to use that quote!
But the problem is, most/some of theses 'opinion spouters' have no interest in facts. Facts have as much effect on them as a ping pong ball thrown at an elephant (they usually don't grasp analogies either ).

I don't get enough opportunities to practice this, but I have a plan for some of these discussions. Not enough practice as these topics are usually avoided, and often interrupted - in a social situation, most people don't want to get into an extended debate on some topic. Even though I love discussions like that, even I realize that it just isn't right for many situations. But my plan:

Rather than counter every point, if you can, go along with as much as you are able, and use more open ended responses if you can't do that without being a hypocrite. For example - " if I accept that point, then that leads to...". By going along with them as long as you can, you just might get them to listen to you, rather than just shut you out and spout. Usually, they are so wrong that you can go a long way in agreement, and still show them that there is a hole in the thinking at the end. Then, when you sense they are maybe listening, you can start planting some seeds of doubt (w/o actually confronting them directly). Something like, " hmmm, we just agreed that x, y, z could be true, but if that's the case, doesn't that mean (insert some inconvenient truth here)? ..."

If they just blow that off, it's a lost cause, might as well talk to a brick. Sometimes, they sense they are trapped, they get a scrunched up look on their face, and will change the subject on their own. Which is just as well.

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Old 06-05-2016, 09:31 AM   #67
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What I find to be ultra-convenient is that 'they' are always in the wrong.
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Old 06-05-2016, 09:50 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
If they just blow that off, it's a lost cause, might as well talk to a brick. Sometimes, they sense they are trapped, they get a scrunched up look on their face, and will change the subject on their own. Which is just as well.

-ERD50
Often I find that they are just waiting for you to get finished while they formulate their retort. You can test this by interrupting them and ask them a question about what you just said. When you get a blank stare, you just confirmed.

On a forum you can test this because they either quote your entire post or none of it.
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Old 06-05-2016, 10:03 AM   #69
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What you describe is an approach that I found useful at work, where people had a vested interest in getting to the "correct" answer (one that would keep them out of trouble). Your approach is a way to lead people toward a better answer while saving face all round.

Using it in private settings, though, can lead to problems.
For example, there is a tendency for women of a certain age to complain about "politicians" referring to Social Security and Medicare as "entitlements." "I paid for those benefits!" they'll cry.

When I point out that the benefits in question are, in fact, budgetary entitlements - and a good thing, too, since it means that anyone who's legally entitled to those benefits, and applies for them, must receive them - the ladies are far from being relieved to learn that nobody is actually calling them welfare recipients. The next response is usually some non sequitur like, "Well, I really meant all those things that Congress thinks they are entitled to." And then they close down, and I am now persona non grata, the Woman Who Knew Too Much.

Bottom line - many people enjoy moaning and groaning about things they don't really want to understand, and logic only ruins their fun.

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Rather than counter every point, if you can, go along with as much as you are able, and use more open ended responses if you can't do that without being a hypocrite. For example - " if I accept that point, then that leads to...". By going along with them as long as you can, you just might get them to listen to you, rather than just shut you out and spout. Usually, they are so wrong that you can go a long way in agreement, and still show them that there is a hole in the thinking at the end. Then, when you sense they are maybe listening, you can start planting some seeds of doubt (w/o actually confronting them directly). Something like, " hmmm, we just agreed that x, y, z could be true, but if that's the case, doesn't that mean (insert some inconvenient truth here)? ..."

I

-ERD50
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Old 06-05-2016, 10:23 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Music Lover View Post
People are entitled to their own opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts.
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Well put! I'm going to use that quote!
It has long been one of my favorite quotes. Generally attributed to Daniel Patrick Moynihan, but not always.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Daniel_Patrick_Moynihan
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Old 06-05-2016, 12:54 PM   #71
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What I find to be ultra-convenient is that 'they' are always in the wrong.
They ain't us!
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:54 PM   #72
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It's great to speak up, until the perpetrator collects some 'friends' and seeks to vigorously convince one of the error of one's ways.

I generally save speaking up for very controlled environments. I like the idea of a long retirement.


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Old 06-05-2016, 10:54 PM   #73
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I like the idea of a long retirement.

I like the idea of a quiet retirement. Besides, I'm overwhelmingly outnumbered...
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Old 06-05-2016, 11:50 PM   #74
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:20 AM   #75
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I don't even try to handles the differences around me, just acknowledge and enjoy them. From these differences we learn, compare, improve.

Variety is the spice of life.
This is a very good philosophy and practice.
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