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Old 05-16-2014, 11:30 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
In the US, you can make back-up copies of music CDs - it is considered 'fair-use'.
That is incorrect. Fair Use does not apply.

See Michael's posting for details about the parameters of when and why this is copyright violation.
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Old 05-16-2014, 01:12 PM   #22
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That is incorrect. Fair Use does not apply.

See Michael's posting for details about the parameters of when and why this is copyright violation.
Making a backup of an audio CD is not a copyright violation.
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Old 05-16-2014, 01:35 PM   #23
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DNA breaks down over time too, but has found a way to make replicas, well, near-replicas. That scheme has worked for quite a few years.
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Old 05-16-2014, 01:39 PM   #24
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Making a backup of an audio CD is not a copyright violation.
But, but,but.... BUU said we (and every reputable link I can find) are wrong. So I guess THAT is THAT!

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Old 05-16-2014, 02:07 PM   #25
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So I guess THAT is THAT!
The RIAA has gone out of its way to obfuscate and the FUD machine has been on full throttle.
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Old 05-16-2014, 03:54 PM   #26
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I have a bunch of 20 year old cds purchased with data on them and the all read ok. (both music and computer disks). Of course today with flash drives at $.50/gb it may be better to use a flash drive (no moving parts except electrons). Some drives come with a lifetime warranty. In particular if they are used as archival mechanisms i.e. write once and read a lot.
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Old 05-16-2014, 04:15 PM   #27
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How long are data expected to survive readable from flash drives?
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Old 05-16-2014, 04:56 PM   #28
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How long are data expected to survive readable from flash drives?
The web seems to imply at least 10 years possibly more, again if they go thru the washer they may have shorter lives. Plug them in and do a directory every year or so to check. Kingston claims 25 years with one read write cycle per day. Thus if used as an archival mechanism, i.e. write rarely the live could be as long as we have usb ports to read them. Also one might have to be concerned with the longevity of the way the flash drive is formatted. for modern drives it will be likley
Fat 32 may be the best choice which works up to a 2 tb flash drive.
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Old 05-16-2014, 05:14 PM   #29
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Actually "fair use" is not the same as making a duplicate copy for archival purposes:

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In its most general sense, a fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and “transformative” purpose, such as to comment upon, criticize, or parody a copyrighted work. - See more at: What Is Fair Use? :: Copyright Overview by Rich Stim :: Stanford Copyright and Fair Use Center
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Old 05-16-2014, 07:01 PM   #30
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Too lazy to read the back story, but I think manufactured CDs are quite a bit more robust than home-burned.

My music CD collection is 30-ish years old, and hasn't deteriorated any more than my hearing has...
It is true that pressed CDs (mass manufactured) last much longer than burned CD-Rs (individually a recorded). Pressed CDs have "bits" recorded by bumps and pits that are stamped onto blanks with a glass master. Recordable CDs use a layer of dye that is burned by the user drive's laser. This dye degrades with time and UV exposure.

CD-Rs and DVD-Rs have a much shorter life than pressed discs. See the following excerpt from a US government Web site: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) about Optical Storage Media: Storing Temporary Records on CDs and DVDs.
6. How long can I expect my recorded CDs/DVDs to last?

CD/DVD experiential life expectancy is 2 to 5 years even though published life expectancies are often cited as 10 years, 25 years, or longer. However, a variety of factors discussed in the sources cited in FAQ 15, below, may result in a much shorter life span for CDs/DVDs. Life expectancies are statistically based; any specific medium may experience a critical failure before its life expectancy is reached. Additionally, the quality of your storage environment may increase or decrease the life expectancy of the media. We recommend testing your media at least every two years to assure your records are still readable.

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Old 05-17-2014, 03:18 AM   #31
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Actually "fair use" is not the same as making a duplicate copy for archival purposes:
Indeed. Many people are inclined to ignore the law to justify what they want to do, regardless. I couldn't imagine doing business in an industry where the general public had such vigorous disdain for the rules letting the seller decide what it is the they want to sell.
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Old 05-17-2014, 09:06 AM   #32
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Indeed. Many people are inclined to ignore the law to justify what they want to do, regardless. I couldn't imagine doing business in an industry where the general public had such vigorous disdain for the rules letting the seller decide what it is the they want to sell.
Not sure why I'm bothering but....


My actions have nothing to do with 'disdain for the seller', and it's rather rude of you to accuse me of that. My actions actually help the seller and me - win-win.

I make digital, lossless copies of my CDs and LPs so I can put them on a hard drive and play them from a playlist. And, I can back these up on a second drive.

These two actions increase the value of the CD to me, and therefore, I buy more of them. I'd be less inclined to buy CDs if I could not add them to my digital player.

I don't sell or distribute the copies or the originals. And the sellers do not offer non-compressed digital copies for sale. I am anti-piracy. I am not anti-copy for your own personal use. If some interpretation of the laws makes me a criminal (and I don't believe it does), I'd say the problem is with the lawyers/laws - but that's my opinion and if that's the case I'll just call it 'civil disobedience'.

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Old 05-17-2014, 09:28 AM   #33
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Not sure why I'm bothering but....
You want to defend a perspective that would place your own personal preferences over the rules of society. It is okay to admit it.
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Old 05-17-2014, 09:43 AM   #34
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You want to defend a perspective that would place your own personal preferences over the rules of society. It is okay to admit it.
Well, I don't think the rules are clear in being against what I do - so I'll use the 'reasonable man' defense.

And I don't think 'society' gives one whit if I copy my CDs for my own personal use. It's clear I'm not hurting anyone with my actions, and (as I said previously) I'm helping some people (musicians and music companies) because I'm more likely to buy CDs due to the flexibility of the digital format I convert them to (for my own use!).

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Old 05-17-2014, 09:55 AM   #35
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Well, I don't think the rules are clear in being against what I do - so I'll use the 'reasonable man' defense.
And of course, "reasonable" coincidentally happens to correlate with what's good for you - again.
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Old 05-17-2014, 09:58 AM   #36
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....6. How long can I expect my recorded CDs/DVDs to last?

CD/DVD experiential life expectancy is 2 to 5 years ....
Geeze. My cassettes last longer than that. Speaking of which, if you can plug your MP3 into the car CD player, maybe they make a gismo that you can plug in that slot but will play the cassettes?
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Old 05-17-2014, 10:01 AM   #37
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Magnetic tape is a superior mechanism for data storage longevity, reliable from 10-50 years (as compare to recordable optical disc, reliable up to 25 years) when both are stored properly. Optical lasts long only if you're going to treat the media poorly.
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Old 05-17-2014, 10:22 AM   #38
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And of course, "reasonable" coincidentally happens to correlate with what's good for you - again.
This is circular, and also WRONG (piracy would be 'good for me' - free music!, but I don't/won't do that) - I'm done.

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Old 05-17-2014, 10:45 AM   #39
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I've read several layman's books related to copyright and I'm amazed at how confusing this subject can be. It seems that there are huge gray areas where nobody knows the answer as to whether an infringement constitutes fair use until there is a settled court case.

Initially reading this thread I thought personal ripping was considered fair use like format shifting. However, a quick read on wikipedia (I would not trust anything put out by RIAA) suggests that it may not be:

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U.S. copyright law (Title 17 of the United States Code) generally says that making a copy of an original work, if conducted without the consent of the copyright owner, is infringement. The law makes no explicit grant or denial of a right to make a "personal use" copy of another's copyrighted content on one's own digital media and devices. For example, space shifting, by making a copy of a personally-owned audio CD for transfer to an MP3 player for that person's personal use, is not explicitly allowed or forbidden.
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Although certain types of infringement scenarios are allowed as fair use and thus are effectively considered non-infringing, "personal use" copying is not explicitly mentioned as a type of fair use, and case law has not yet established otherwise.
From Ripping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. I'm not a copyright lawyer so I'm assuming this is accurate (but wikipedia could have errors and biases)

However, my guess is that there is no case law on this because either (1) the RIAA knows that it would lose and thus create a precedent so they haven't sued anybody. (2) The RIAA might win and create a backlash resulting in legislation explicitly allowing this type of copying (and maybe a whole lot more).
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Old 05-17-2014, 11:50 AM   #40
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Geeze. My cassettes last longer than that.
Yes, it is disappointing to learn that. The limited life of recordable CDs and DVDs has been known for some time. The link I provided from archives.gov recommends to test your archival copy every 2 years to see if they are still readable. How does that help, if you find that your treasured copies of the photos of your newborn are now irretrievable? One needs to keep multiple copies and hopes that at least one is still good.

I have yet to embark on the digitization of my photos, but for now my new photos and MP3s are stored on multiple file servers on the home network. Still, just the other day, one of the servers, a Buffalo Terastation with built-in RAID capability, reported that one of its 4 hard drives was inaccessible. It caused my heart to skip, but I settled down to remove that "bad" drive for inspection. Turned out that its connector only had to be reseated, and the server proceeded to rebuild its RAID array (it ran for more than a day).

Anyway, things are getting more complicated, take a lot of time, and still I wonder if my offsprings care about all this when I croak.

"Dust in the wind..."
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