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05-14-2014, 09:40 AM
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#2
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,495
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Interesting article. Didn't realize they were so subject to degradation; especially the manufactured/recorded discs.
What's funny is that as a woodworker I made a pretty nice hutch for our 32" Sony TV years ago, we know how useful that piece is now. To solve the storage problem of hundreds of CD's I did a very nice cherry cabinet with dovetailed drawers that perfectly fit CD's. So now I guess it's just a burial vault in which the CD's can degrade! Admit that once burned to the computer they never come out, and cannot recall last time I bought an actual CD. Ah, progress. And no, I'm no going back to vinyl! My ears cannot tell the difference!
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05-14-2014, 10:45 AM
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#3
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,078
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This has been known by the industry from the beginning of the technology. The alternatives were deemed too costly for the targeted use case.
MRG
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05-14-2014, 10:55 AM
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#4
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 11,702
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I've been putting off converting my VHS tapes to DVD. Now I'm not so certain I should hurry!
I'm surprised the referenced article didn't mention how the Library of Congress archives important recordings (as a comparison). Sure, they digitally record everything they can considered important. They document this recording with "meta-data" to hopefully give instructions to the future generations as to how it should be decoded, since things change. (Can you read your old Wordstar, visicalc or lotus 1-2-3 files?)
But they also recognize that digital recordings can be lost quite easily, and perhaps the meta-data instructions will fail to be recognized in 1000 years.
So, they have a process whereby they record the very most important recordings to a durable analog media that should be simply playable in the future with basic instructions. Basically, they use 1940s technology and lay down grooves in some very durable media, I forgot exactly what substance. The process is similar to cutting wax, but of course the media is much more durable. It is all very fascinating that they are taking Lady Gaga, for example, and cutting a record not too differently than they would in 1949.
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05-14-2014, 12:03 PM
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#5
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeWras
I've been putting off converting my VHS tapes to DVD. Now I'm not so certain I should hurry! ...
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Your VHS tapes are degrading - you absolutely should hurry to convert them!
However, don't bother converting to DVD, convert to an external hard drive. Make a back-up or two or three. Every 5 years, copy from one of the back ups to a freshly formatted drive. Once that has been verified, reformat the backups, one at a time, and re-copy to those.
The copy process will detect errors in the process, so you are assured your copies are good. A fresh digital copy will be as good as the original. Hard drives can also degrade over time, 5 years is probably a reasonable time frame to 're-fresh' everything.
-ERD50
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05-14-2014, 12:07 PM
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#6
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northern Ohio
Posts: 3,182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
However, don't bother converting to DVD, convert to an external hard drive. Make a back-up or two or three. Every 5 years, copy from one of the back ups to a freshly formatted drive. Once that has been verified, reformat the backups, one at a time, and re-copy to those.
-ERD50
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This is what we are doing - skipping DVDs completely.
We've collected much of the old family 8mm/super8 films from DW's childhood.
I'm also scanning all the old family photos. That job should be done by about 2020...
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05-14-2014, 12:15 PM
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#7
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Madeira Beach Fl
Posts: 1,403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeirce
This is what we are doing - skipping DVDs completely.
We've collected much of the old family 8mm/super8 films from DW's childhood.
I'm also scanning all the old family photos. That job should be done by about 2020...
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+1 Also going down "memory lane" - a long road and a little wheel.
__________________
_______________________________________________
"A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night and in between does what he wants to do" --Bob Dylan.
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05-14-2014, 12:40 PM
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#8
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 47,500
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After Trombone Al's thread on getting rid of some CDs and DVDs for minimalization reasons, I reduced my stack of both to almost none. What I need is on my portable external hard drive with extra copies on the hard drives of both computers. Looking at that tiny stack of CDs and DVDs, if all of them vaporized I probably would just shrug my shoulders and think, "So what".
So, I am well prepared for the end of CDs and DVDs. I would not have felt this way had I not gone through them recently.
I don't have any VHS tapes any more at all and haven't for years and years. I got rid of my VHS tape player years ago too. I no longer have any floppy disks either.
Everything is on hard drives. If they become obsolete, I'll be in trouble. ![Grin](https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/images/smilies/grin.gif) If that happened I would probably have any cherished or important photos and documents printed out and get rid of the rest. Paper never seems to become obsolete.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities. - - H. Melville, 1851.
Happily retired since 2009, at age 61. Best years of my life by far!
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05-14-2014, 10:38 PM
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#9
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Eastern WV Panhandle
Posts: 25,340
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It is a commentary on modern technology to observe that to date no one has yet invented a data storage medium more durable than carving in stone.
__________________
When I was a kid I wanted to be older. This is not what I expected.
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05-15-2014, 05:18 AM
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#10
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,240
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Even stones wear away over time.
Reasonably frequent copying is the best approach to data storage.
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05-15-2014, 05:52 AM
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#11
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,180
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In addition to putting them on hard drives, also store copies in the "cloud" (aka internet storage providers). The prices have been falling and it is worth paying the money for large amounts of storage to ensure longevity.
__________________
FIREd date: June 26, 2018 - "This Happy Feeling, Going Round and Round!" (GQ)
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05-15-2014, 08:45 AM
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#12
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Flyover country
Posts: 25,357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt34
It is a commentary on modern technology to observe that to date no one has yet invented a data storage medium more durable than carving in stone.
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But we keep trying.
Believe it or not, our beloved federal gummint has considerable experience with microfilming warehouses full of old punch cards, then scanning the microfilm to re-digitize the information. I was aware of a couple of these exercises while w*rking in DC way back when.
Patent US4551012 - Microfilm camera for filming punch cards - Google Patents
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05-15-2014, 10:00 AM
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#13
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
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"Dust in the wind...
All we do crumbles to the ground though we refuse to see...
Nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky...
It slips away...
Dust in the wind..." -- Kansas
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)
"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
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05-15-2014, 10:34 AM
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#14
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,419
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Funny, when CD's first came out, people were saying that "this is the end-all!...these CDs will last 100 years and still sound good". So, after what, 30 years they're practically obsolete.
Now...how long before cloud storage is replaced by..........?
__________________
Living well is the best revenge!
Retired @ 52 in 2005
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05-15-2014, 11:05 AM
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#15
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,078
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The people in the industry knew how long CDs would last. The marketing was a different story.
There's another technology, think the latest, and probably last, revision to it is UDO. It was targeted to have a 50-100 year lifespan. It's too expensive for music, at the time it was going to replace micro film/fiche for permanent archives.
Since the price of disk is so cheap today, specialized storage arrays(emulating WORM) are now in the standard for permanent retention.
Granted things will change again.
MRG
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05-15-2014, 11:10 AM
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#16
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,419
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But...but....I just converted all my 8 tracks to CDs!!!
__________________
Living well is the best revenge!
Retired @ 52 in 2005
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05-15-2014, 08:54 PM
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#17
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 14,183
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Too lazy to read the back story, but I think manufactured CDs are quite a bit more robust than home-burned.
My music CD collection is 30-ish years old, and hasn't deteriorated any more than my hearing has...
I haven't really gone to the trouble of archiving much... Lazy Luddite!
I do have a back-up HD, and some stuff on the "cloud".
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire
...not doing anything of true substance...
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05-16-2014, 04:24 AM
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#18
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRG
The people in the industry knew how long CDs would last.
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Indeed. They even built into the licensing agreement the fact that what you're buying is the right to listen to the music as long as the medium lasts, i.e., making backup copies remains illegal for music, even though it is legal for video games.
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05-16-2014, 07:53 AM
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#19
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
Indeed. They even built into the licensing agreement the fact that what you're buying is the right to listen to the music as long as the medium lasts, i.e., making backup copies remains illegal for music, even though it is legal for video games.
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In the US, you can make back-up copies of music CDs - it is considered 'fair-use'.
It appears that copy-protected DVDs are a different matter. Some legal wrangling indicates it is the breaking (or using breaking equipment?) that is illegal. Personally, I think that is a distinction w/o a difference, but some highly compensated lawyers/lobbyists have convinced our lawmakers otherwise.
-ERD50
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05-16-2014, 08:19 AM
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#20
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
In the US, you can make back-up copies of music CDs - it is considered 'fair-use'.
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Right. From the RIAA website RIAA - The Law - May 16, 2014
Quote:
Copying CDs
- It’s okay to copy music onto an analog cassette, but not for commercial purposes.
- It’s also okay to copy music onto special Audio CD-R’s, mini-discs, and digital tapes (because royalties have been paid on them) – but, again, not for commercial purposes.
- Beyond that, there’s no legal "right" to copy the copyrighted music on a CD onto a CD-R. However, burning a copy of CD onto a CD-R, or transferring a copy onto your computer hard drive or your portable music player, won’t usually raise concerns so long as:
- The copy is made from an authorized original CD that you legitimately own
- The copy is just for your personal use. It’s not a personal use – in fact, it’s illegal – to give away the copy or lend it to others for copying.
- The owners of copyrighted music have the right to use protection technology to allow or prevent copying.
- Remember, it’s never okay to sell or make commercial use of a copy that you make.
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Even though they omit reference to digital music files, the same rights apply. Likewise for sharing across different personal HW devices.
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