Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-01-2012, 11:12 AM   #201
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
easysurfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,891
Yeah, Honda banked too much on the Insight. I think Honda got gun shy as they first tried to make their old relieable Civics into Hybrids but this didn't sell. So they went for the Insight which just seems and looks like cheap version of a Prius.

The Prius C seems well targeted to compete with both the Insight and regular Fit.
__________________

__________________
Have you ever seen a headstone with these words
"If only I had spent more time at work" ... from "Busy Man" sung by Billy Ray Cyrus
easysurfer is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-01-2012, 11:26 AM   #202
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
It was why are hybrid & EV buyers challenged on the economics, when luxury care buyers usually aren't?
Many hybrid and EV buyers boast of the money they're saving at the gas pump. They emphasize the economics. Luxury car buyers seldom emphasize the economy of their purchase but rather the features, comfort, performance, etc. It makes perfect sense to challenge hybrid and EV buyers on the economics and not luxury car buyers.
__________________

__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 11:32 AM   #203
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
I've wanted to see a Fit Hybrid too. I can only assume Honda is afraid a Fit Hybrid would cannibalize their (already anemic) Insight sales. Honda hasn't been very successful with hybrids for example the Accord Hybrid and the CRZ, and their other hybrids have been trounced by Toyota as well so far.
Midpack.... Hope you don't get upset at me...

But.... as you mention, economic decisions by the buyers have sunk Honda... as the Accord Hybrid clearly showed... just making a car Hybrid does not mean it will sell.... I also think this will happen to the Volt...
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 12:06 PM   #204
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,977
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
Midpack.... Hope you don't get upset at me...
I don't get upset, life's too short. We disagree, or at least we started with different definitions of what economic challenges meant.

And I welcome different views than my own, you never learn anything talking to like minded people. This would be a very dull place if everyone was of the same view IMO. Like everyone here, I am well versed in some areas, but I have a lot to learn in others.

Cheers...
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 12:21 PM   #205
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Yes, let's confuse the issue and re-fight that battle again, it's only been a week since your post #154 Gas $4 this summer.

I have a headache now, but that's my own fault...
You included 'reduces emissions' in your post as one of the advantages - so that can't be challenged, we just need to accept it?

I know you posted that chart, but the interactive graphic from SciAm paints a different picture (linked in that thread). It's not cut & dried.


Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet View Post
Many hybrid and EV buyers boast of the money they're saving at the gas pump. They emphasize the economics. Luxury car buyers seldom emphasize the economy of their purchase but rather the features, comfort, performance, etc. It makes perfect sense to challenge hybrid and EV buyers on the economics and not luxury car buyers.
Exactly. Now, if that luxury car owner were to say 'My BMW leather seats are more comfortable than your Mercedes leather seats', that could be challenged (and I imagine it is, on the car forums).

And look at the ads - hybrids/EVs ads talk about the environment and/or gas prices (an economic issue); luxury cars ads talk about the luxury, they don't talk about the cost effectiveness of leather.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 01:21 PM   #206
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,977
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
You included 'reduces emissions' in your post as one of the advantages - so that can't be challenged, we just need to accept it?
1) Those were reasons a buyer could choose a hybrid or EV, right or wrong. "Unless you choose to spend the $3K for "reduced emissions, leading edge technology, geeky, quirky, different and/or green/eco-chic."

2) Your SciAm link compared EV's & plug-in hybrids to hybrids, we're comparing vs the mainstream conventional gasoline powered internal combustion engine car aren't we? See "Powering Plug Ins" below from your source...

3) Coal plants emit considerably more than natural gas or other power sources. Natural gas will likely take share from coal in the decades ahead Coal's Sunset: Will Natural Gas Replace Coal Power Plants? | Txchnologist.

4) Here's another source comparing EV's to gasoline powered cars, lower even in coal regions, much lower in the US aggregate:
Quote:
An EV recharged from the existing US grid electricity emits about 115 grams of CO2 per kilometer driven (6.5 oz(CO2)/mi), whereas a conventional US-market gasoline powered car emits 250 g(CO2)/km (14 oz(CO2)/mi) (most from its tailpipe, some from the production and distribution of gasoline).The savings are questionable relative to hybrid or diesel cars (according to official British government testing, the most efficient European market cars are well below 115 grams of CO2 per kilometer driven, although a study in Scotland gave 149.5gCO2/km as the average for new cars in the UK), but would be more significant in countries with cleaner electric infrastructure. In a worst-case scenario where incremental electricity demand would be met exclusively with coal, a 2009 study conducted by the World Wide Fund for Nature and IZES found that a mid-size EV would emit roughly 200 g(CO2)/km (11 oz(CO2)/mi), compared with an average of 170 g(CO2)/km (9.7 oz(CO2)/mi) for a gasoline-powered compact car. This study concluded that introducing 1 million EV cars to Germany would, in the best-case scenario, only reduce CO2 emissions by 0.1%, if nothing is done to upgrade the electricity infrastructure or manage demand.
Electric car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Attached Images
File Type: png 2008_US_electricity_generation_by_source_v2.png (60.9 KB, 0 views)
File Type: gif SciAm.gif (49.4 KB, 71 views)
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 02:41 PM   #207
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
1) Those were reasons a buyer could choose a hybrid or EV, right or wrong. "Unless you choose to spend the $3K for "reduced emissions, leading edge technology, geeky, quirky, different and/or green/eco-chic."
Right or wrong? OK, if that's the way you are looking at it. Regardless, I took the discussion to the question of whether it is right or not.

Quote:
2) Your SciAm link compared EV's & plug-in hybrids to hybrids, we're comparing vs the mainstream conventional gasoline powered internal combustion engine car aren't we? See "Powering Plug Ins" below from your source...
I'm not. This is a Chevy Volt thread, it is a plug-in hybrid, so I (and SciAm) are comparing it to any viable alternatives. Why not include non-plug-in-hybrids? I see no reason to limit ourselves to any specific tech, we should use whatever solves the most problems for the lowest cost.

As I said earlier, a non-plug-in hybrid recovers wasted energy. It's a clear win - with one caveat; the only possible downside is if the environmental cost of the added stuff. Another possibility that I will discount is if carrying around the added weight more than offsets any gains. Clearly the added weight does not, or the mpg would be lower.

Quote:
3) Coal plants emit considerably more than natural gas or other power sources. Natural gas will likely take share from coal in the decades ahead Coal's Sunset: Will Natural Gas Replace Coal Power Plants? | Txchnologist.
Apparently, the authors of that study in SciAm do not agree. I'm not sure of their methodology, maybe they are wrong. I think all I've said is that it isn't clear - we get different answers from different sources.

Quote:
4) Here's another source comparing EV's to gasoline powered cars, lower even in coal regions, much lower in the US aggregate:
Electric car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Again, no reason to exclude non-plug-ins. The question is does plugging in really improve the environment.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 02:45 PM   #208
Full time employment: Posting here.
My Dream's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 829
I hope I didn't open up a can of worms re my last comments, although I do appreciate the resent posts. My only intent was to share my conversation I had with DW yesterday re ideas on her next car. I still have time since hers is still drivable but to be honest for us it was all about the math.

The way I see it, I she presently spends $2500.00 (Canada pricing) in gas per year at today's gas prices. Should it rise well (it's anyone guess) and the same can be said about hydro prices then it would be more. If she were to get a Chevy Volt, her yearly gas/hydro charge (based on 6 cents per kwh) would be anywhere from $250.00 to $1000.00. My math tells me the gas savings aren't worth the added costs of the Volt at the present Canadian MSRP. It would have to come down substantially for the incentive to be there to purchase.

I haven't touched upon how it will or won't effect the environment since at this point it's a cost factor. She likes the Chevy Cruise and presently drives an Acura Vigor so the change is welcome.

As mentioned I'm going to wait it out and see how the pricing if any will change. At this point it time, based on my math, its not truly cost effective to pay the extra price here in Canada.

Again I appreciate the heated debate but it's getting too technical for me. Maybe I'll wait for the conclusion if there ever is one.


Thanks.
__________________
Newbie
My Dream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 02:57 PM   #209
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by My Dream View Post
... My math tells me the gas savings aren't worth the added costs of the Volt at the present Canadian MSRP. It would have to come down substantially for the incentive to be there to purchase.
MyDream - can you fill us in on the incentives(subsidies?) in Canada. Here in the US, there is a $7,500 credit for the first 200,000 vehicles per mfg.


Quote:
I haven't touched upon how it will or won't effect the environment since at this point it's a cost factor.

Again I appreciate the heated debate but it's getting to technical for me. Maybe I'll wait for the conclusion if there ever is one.


It's complicated, don't hold your breath while waiting for a conclusion But the math for cost/payback is more straightforward.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 03:35 PM   #210
Full time employment: Posting here.
My Dream's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
MyDream - can you fill us in on the incentives(subsidies?) in Canada. Here in the US, there is a $7,500 credit for the first 200,000 vehicles per mfg.
In my Province of Ontario, the incentive is around $8500.00 but the MSRP is just over $41000. which is higher then in the States. Keep in mind that gas prices are also higher in Canada therefore the savings, fuel wise would be somewhat greater. As for hydro rates our evening/night rate is 6 cents per kwh, I'm not sure how that compares to our neighbours to the south. Iit would cost around $1.00-$1.25 for a full charge and based on my wifes driving it would need a charge ever 2-3 days so as to not need to run on fuel.

Again, at this point it's strickly about the math and so far the Volt seem to have the best saving, as well as the highest purchase price.
__________________
Newbie
My Dream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 08:19 PM   #211
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retire2014 View Post
+1

Thank you, Zathras --- for your thoughts.

For the record, after reading everyone's comments and test driving a Volt, I made up my mind and bought a 2012 Volt right before Thanksgiving. To date, I have only had to put 4 gallons of gas in the tank to replenish it. It is by far, EV or not, the nicest, most comfortable, quiet, luxurious ride I've ever had. And now that gas prices in my area are almost $4.00 per gallon, I am doubly glad that I bought the Volt.
My pleasure! Congrats on your new car
Nothing beats (for me) the quite and smoothness driving under electric power.
__________________
"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.
(Ancient Indian Proverb)"
Zathras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:21 PM   #212
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retire2014 View Post
To date, I have only had to put 4 gallons of gas in the tank to replenish it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
Congratulations on your new car! We want pictures!!!
One question - what does the owner's manual say about the need to 'exercise' the gas engine? I'd be concerned you are using it so infrequently the gas in your tank could go bad. (I know, there's always something...)
You want a car owner to read their owner's manual?!? Those things are almost as big as reactor plant manuals now!

I agree that the exhaust system is a concern... and I'm wondering if Volt owners have to add Sta-Bil to their fuel tanks.

I'll ask my Volt gear-head buddy up the street. He usually cruises around the neighborhood in his battery-boosted recumbent bicycle, so I'm sure his Volt's catalytic converter is quietly rusting away too.
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:43 PM   #213
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
easysurfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,891
Listening to the news today. The news mentioned that a by product of the higher gas prices is that folks are out to purchase more fuel efficient vehicles instead of their old cars. In a way, I guess it's similar to a run on slow blowers before and after a blizzard.

http://moneyland.time.com/2012/03/01...tter-mpg-cars/
__________________
Have you ever seen a headstone with these words
"If only I had spent more time at work" ... from "Busy Man" sung by Billy Ray Cyrus
easysurfer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:46 PM   #214
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kerrville,Tx
Posts: 2,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
You want a car owner to read their owner's manual?!? Those things are almost as big as reactor plant manuals now!

I agree that the exhaust system is a concern... and I'm wondering if Volt owners have to add Sta-Bil to their fuel tanks.

I'll ask my Volt gear-head buddy up the street. He usually cruises around the neighborhood in his battery-boosted recumbent bicycle, so I'm sure his Volt's catalytic converter is quietly rusting away too.
Actually GM has put all of its cars owners manual online, search for chevy volt owners manual. I checked and if the fuel gets to old, a warning message appears, saying to accept going to gasoline mode until you refill the tank.
__________________
meierlde is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2012, 12:25 AM   #215
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by meierlde View Post
Actually GM has put all of its cars owners manual online, search for chevy volt owners manual. I checked and if the fuel gets to old, a warning message appears, saying to accept going to gasoline mode until you refill the tank.
I guess that's better than a "Check Gas Tank!" light and the dealer's $45 bottle of fuel preserver.

I had a big driving month with our Prius and got 550 miles before I had to add just over nine gallons to the gas tank. The cruise control has a much lighter touch than even I do.
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2012, 06:33 AM   #216
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,375
Everybody wants a hybrid! Even Justin Bieber (they must have been out of the Volts):

Justin Bieber gets a Fisker Karma for his 18th birthday on 'Ellen' - chicagotribune.com
__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2012, 07:55 AM   #217
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,977
Quote:
Originally Posted by easysurfer View Post
Listening to the news today. The news mentioned that a by product of the higher gas prices is that folks are out to purchase more fuel efficient vehicles instead of their old cars. In a way, I guess it's similar to a run on slow blowers before and after a blizzard.

Gas Prices Continue to Rise as Americans Start Driving Less, Buying Fuel-Efficient Cars | Moneyland | TIME.com
Same thing that happened with the last gas price spike in 2008. There were waiting lists for higher mpg cars, and for a while there you could buy full sized pickups & SUV's discounted by almost 50%. But we're a fickle bunch, we can seemingly change on a dime...
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2012, 08:20 AM   #218
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Same thing that happened with the last gas price spike in 2008. There were waiting lists for higher mpg cars, and for a while there you could buy full sized pickups & SUV's discounted by almost 50%. But we're a fickle bunch, we can seemingly change on a dime...
This behavior really makes me doubt any idea that consumers (in general) are engaging in coldly rational decisionmaking when buying a car. I think few do the number-crunching we yak about here. It's more like "Honey, gas is gonna go to $4 a gallon. We need a car that gets better mileage." I doubt 25% are doing the math on depreciation, etc. I've heard of folks who do a lot of long-distance driving (between cities in Texas, etc) and were disappointed in the mileage of their hybrid. I guess you can put the sticker on the window (price, mileage, etc) but you can't make folks do the math.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2012, 09:19 AM   #219
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
But the environmental issue does get much more questionable for EVs and plug-ins, which are largely coal burning machines.
Unlike gas-powered vehicles, though, it does not *have* to be the case that these (even if indirectly) use polluting fossil fuels. These cars are as clean or as dirty as the mix of energy sources on the power grid.

Unfortunately I've found that many of the people who are most critical of EVs because the grid is often using coal are the same people who are the most critical of efforts to "green up" the grid. Not pointing at anyone in particular here, but it seems to be a common theme.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2012, 09:54 AM   #220
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
Unlike gas-powered vehicles, though, it does not *have* to be the case that these (even if indirectly) use polluting fossil fuels. These cars are as clean or as dirty as the mix of energy sources on the power grid.

Unfortunately I've found that many of the people who are most critical of EVs because the grid is often using coal are the same people who are the most critical of efforts to "green up" the grid. Not pointing at anyone in particular here, but it seems to be a common theme.

Heck, I would love to have them get rid of those grandfather clauses for polluters... why should someone get a pass on a polluting plant just because they built it 20 years ago... sure, I can see phasing in the reduction, but a pass
__________________

__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:51 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.