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10-26-2011, 09:49 AM
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#81
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
I got the impression he just 'wanted it'. I never did figure out why.
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Different strokes, maybe?
If I insisted on understanding why everyone wanted stuff I had no interest in, I'd go looney -- as others might in trying to understand why I want stuff they think is silly.
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You are misunderstanding me. I don't have any problem with him wanting something that I maybe can't understand. But he posted looking for feedback, and it's hard to give feedback when he really hasn't communicated why he wants it.
Is it economics? Is it environmental concerns? Is it because he just wants new technology? Does he want to appear 'green' to attract the hippie-chicks?
That is separate from whether I would agree with it. You are taking my comments as judgmental, when they are simply seeking information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl
On the face of it, it seems that we haven't made progress, in that the volt only goes 40 miles/charge.
This car went 40 miles/charge:
And this car goes 40 miles on a charge:
But consider that the volt weighs much more, goes faster, has headlights that you don't have to light with a match, is many times safer, can be driven in the winter, can go hundreds of miles using its generator, etc., and you have to admit there's been a lot of progress.
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The post was a bit tongue-in-cheek. Likewise, the mpg rating of cars back then isn't all that different from the average car today, for all the reasons you mention. But EVs lost the market back then, for the same reasons they won't gain any great market share today (until/if the economics change, and/or these things actually become a significant environmental plus).
-ERD50
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10-26-2011, 09:55 AM
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#82
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgarling
From the perspective of GM, it must be or the product will not be successful. The market for expensive items that don't make economic sense is somewhat limited.
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With GM it gets complicated by politics, and I will say no more.
Take the Nissan Leaf - do they really need to make a profit, or are they looking at it as a loss-leader, just to get some PR that they are a groovy, high-tech, on the edge company concerned about the environment, and not stuck in the old world of the ICE. We are not your grandfather's car company. Maybe the PR is worth it to them?
-ERD50
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10-26-2011, 10:00 AM
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#83
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,483
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Until you have an AFFORDABLE electric car that can go 250-300 miles between charges, I'm not interested. Seems all the R&D engineers at the major car companies have gotten going and we now have a whole bunch of 40mpg or higher cars........
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10-26-2011, 10:17 AM
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#84
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North Oregon Coast
Posts: 16,483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude
Until you have an AFFORDABLE electric car that can go 250-300 miles between charges, I'm not interested.
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It's not only the cruising range of electrics that is problematic in terms of "mainstreaming" EVs -- it's also the time it takes to "refuel". Until you can recharge nearly as fast as you can refill your gas tank, there's another concern.
Having said that, clearly the folks who have very long commutes and make frequent long "road trips" aren't the target market here.
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10-26-2011, 10:41 AM
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#85
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,901
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I would wait for a hydrogen fuel cell car. Current electric vehicles run on coal.
Electricity from Coal
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“I guess I should warn you, if I turn out to be particularly clear, you've probably misunderstood what I've said” Alan Greenspan
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10-26-2011, 10:44 AM
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#86
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikerdude
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Current hydrogen cars run on fossil fuel.
EIA Energy Kids - Hydrogen
Quote:
Steam reforming is currently the least expensive method of producing hydrogen and accounts for about 95% of the hydrogen produced in the United States. This method is used in industries to separate hydrogen atoms from carbon atoms in methane (CH4). But the steam reforming process results in greenhouse gas emissions that are linked with global warming.
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Ooops!
-ERD50
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10-26-2011, 11:05 AM
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#87
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 14,183
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The forty mile range would cover most of my driving, but the price is too high for my limited budget...
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Have Funds, Will Retire
...not doing anything of true substance...
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10-26-2011, 11:18 AM
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#88
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gone traveling
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: DFW
Posts: 7,586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
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Thats correct. Steam Methane Reformers that produce hydrogen are typically fired from boilers that have NG burners and CO and NOx emissions result from the process. Some Reformers use electricity in lieu of NG. No free lunch here given todays technology for producing hydrogen.
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10-26-2011, 12:50 PM
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#89
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2008
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 8,765
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I'm sticking with my Mr. Fusion powered DeLorean. For long trips anyway. Around town my DWs 2002 VW Beetle TDI get 45-50 mpg, which now that diesel is less than 110% the cost of unleaded means we're winning the price race.
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"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Anonymous (not Will Rogers or Sam Clemens)
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
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10-26-2011, 01:11 PM
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#90
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikerdude
I would wait for a hydrogen fuel cell car. Current electric vehicles run on coal.
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*Ahem.* They run on photovoltaic solar power too... we already have two neighbors on our street who recharge their Nissan Leafs ("Leaves"?) from their arrays.
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10-26-2011, 03:39 PM
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#91
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,774
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If the Volt isn't good enough, there's always the Fisker Karma, recently purchased by Leonardo DiCaprio that gets 100 mpg: $100,000 DiCaprio car: Leonardo DiCaprio buys Fisker Karma hybrid - CSMonitor.com
Quote:
The elegant-looking machine is manufactured in Finland by Fisker Automotive of Anaheim, Calif. For a mere $95,900, you can get the base model. The Karma has a solar paneled roof that both recharges the car’s Lithium-Ion battery and runs the climate control system.
How about the gas mileage? Fisker claims the Karma gets 100 miles to the gallon – and if you only drive 50 miles a day, they say you would need to fill the tank just once per year.
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“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
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10-26-2011, 04:44 PM
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#92
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestwifeever
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Hmmmm, $1000 per MPG +gas. At that price who cares about the price of fuel. He shuld have gotten the Bentley.
The World's Fastest Bentley - MTM Birkin Edition
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by Jared Paul Stern ( RSS feed)
May 29th 2009 at 4:02PM
205 MPH top speed, 0-62 mph in 4.9 seconds. 650 Hp. of pure luxury. Yeah a few more bucks.
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There must be moderation in everything, including moderation.
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11-05-2011, 10:54 AM
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#93
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,896
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Update:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
I checked a few dealers around this area. A few had 1 or 2 in stock, two of 'em had 4 in stock. I'm curious, so I'll watch see how fast those stock #'s move.
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So over ~10 days, I've tracked 13 Volts across 4 dealers in IL (3 nearby, Peoria also came up in my search, so I grabbed it for "Will it play in Peoria" effect)
Only one is gone from the list, and one has been added to the inventory. I just tracked stock numbers, not VIN, so I suppose it is possible that that one simply moved from one dealer to another, but not likely.
No sales in Peoria.
That doesn't seem to indicate any fast sales to me. I wonder if they will need to drop the price once any initial rush of EV enthusiast demand is filled? Then quietly drop it and try again if/when batteries become more cost effective than other options? We already know they aren't an environmental panacea, so what's the point?
-ERD50
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11-05-2011, 11:29 AM
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#94
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: LaLa Land
Posts: 4,698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
\
That doesn't seem to indicate any fast sales to me. I wonder if they will need to drop the price once any initial rush of EV enthusiast demand is filled? Then quietly drop it and try again if/when batteries become more cost effective than other options? We already know they aren't an environmental panacea, so what's the point?
-ERD50
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Remember that the manufacturer of the vehicles could care less about the car once it's in the dealers hands. They have been paid in full at that point so they will not drop the price. It is possible that a rebate could come up though. Once the vehicle sits on the dealers lot and they figure out that no one wants it they will take all the profit out of the deal and sell it ASAP because of floor plan costs.
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Work is something you do to get enough $ so you don't have to....Me.
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11-05-2011, 12:04 PM
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#95
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gone traveling
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 3,851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 73ss454
Remember that the manufacturer of the vehicles could care less about the car once it's in the dealers hands. They have been paid in full at that point so they will not drop the price. It is possible that a rebate could come up though. Once the vehicle sits on the dealers lot and they figure out that no one wants it they will take all the profit out of the deal and sell it ASAP because of floor plan costs.
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Exactly (I spent three decades on the manufacturing side )...
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11-05-2011, 07:36 PM
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#96
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 73ss454
Remember that the manufacturer of the vehicles could care less about the car once it's in the dealers hands. They have been paid in full at that point so they will not drop the price. ...
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Remember that the customer couldn't care less (see the grammar thread for more) who paid what. All they care about is their out-of-pocket cost and the long term cost of ownership (or at least that is what they should care about, financially). If the dealer wants to move the car, they may need to drop the price.
-ERD50
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11-05-2011, 08:34 PM
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#97
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: LaLa Land
Posts: 4,698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
Remember that the customer couldn't care less (see the grammar thread for more) who paid what. All they care about is their out-of-pocket cost and the long term cost of ownership (or at least that is what they should care about, financially). If the dealer wants to move the car, they may need to drop the price.
-ERD50
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You don't have to tell me that the customer could care less, I know all about that.
I was commenting to your post about lowering the price. No doubt the dealer will lower the price as the car sits but don't expect any help from the manufacturer. From what I've read the Volt is not selling so prices should come down at the dealer level.
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Work is something you do to get enough $ so you don't have to....Me.
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12-03-2011, 03:32 PM
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#98
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,506
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Read an article a day or so ago, GM is buying back the Chevy volt. Seems they have some self immolating feature. Prior to that they were offering a gasoline powered car as loaner while attempting to fix the source of fire some testing discovered.
My guess: the the Volt is now toast.
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There must be moderation in everything, including moderation.
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12-03-2011, 03:38 PM
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#99
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ls99
Read an article a day or so ago, GM is buying back the Chevy volt.
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As I understand it they are offering to buy back the Volt from anyone who purchased it and wishes to sell due to concerns about recent reports of battery fires after the cars were involved in accidents.
Not sure I'd qualify the Volt as toast just yet, more like warm buns....
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Numbers is hard
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12-03-2011, 03:40 PM
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#100
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: LaLa Land
Posts: 4,698
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I heard they were giving out loaners till the problem is resolved. If GM is now buying them back, well, say goodbye!
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Work is something you do to get enough $ so you don't have to....Me.
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