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Old 12-17-2011, 08:18 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by SarahW View Post
Hmmm, I see that this thread is three months old. I was going to add my invaluable opinion here, but I imagine the OP has made up his mind by now.
When did that ever stop us!

Anyway, I think the OP was conflicted. He wanted to buy a new Electric Vehicle, but ended up buying a new Gas Clothes Dryer. Hmmm, electric clothes dryers are cheaper than gas clothes dryers. Maybe car companies need to check them out (OK, the long, heavy 3-prong cord could be a problem).

Do I need a new clothes dryer?

I've got an electric clothes dryer and a gas car. Does that make me 'green' enough? Will tree-hugging-hippie-chicks be impressed?

-ERD50
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:23 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by haha View Post
Quote:
Audi North America President Says Chevy Volt is a ĎCar For Idiotsí
I think his logic is fine, though his PR person must have had the day off.
+1 - and yes, 'intellectuals' can be stunningly stupid/ignorant in some areas.


OK, going back 15 days in the way-back machine, but I did mean to comment on this post earlier:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathras View Post
...
As for pollution, on the west coast, there is much less pollution from the grid, than the oil. And the grid is, overall, getting cleaner and cleaner, while gasoline sources are getting dirtier. ...
I know you and I differ on the value of EVs, but I'll tackle this again. And for perspective, I was always looking forward to owning an EV, but my current understanding of the facts has turned me off to them.

Interesting that you qualified that statement with 'on the west coast'. From that Scientific American article, some areas of the west coast were about the only areas where the grid was clean enough (from high % of natural gas and hydro) to make an EV cleaner than a non-plug-in-hybrid. In many (most?) areas, the EV was worse, and in some, even used more oil than a hybrid (oil-fired power plants). So unless we confine EVS/plug-ins to a few specific areas, they will likely, on average, increase pollution over a hybrid (or equivalent high-mpg technology). Why pour money into something that , even in the 'good' case is so marginally beneficial, and probably negative over-all?

Quote:
I suspect EVs will be here for good this time.
Not. Everyone will be driving them, but many will.
heh-heh, I missed your typo. Maybe I do agree with the first two lines (I suspect EVs will be here for good this time. Not.)

But obviously, that is not what you meant. But I disagree with your intended line. EVs haven't taken Europe by storm, and with their high petrol prices and generally shorter commutes, you would expect them to lead the way. IF they aren't selling like gang-busters there, how can we expect many sales here? Makes no sense to me. They are still too expensive, the range is too low, and the pollution offsets aren't good enough. Unless there is some radical shift in battery technology size/weight/cost, and some radical shift in electric power generation 'green-ness', I just can't see any rationale for EVS catching on.

I think all the EV $ could be spent more wisely. I'll be generous, and say an EV cuts pollution by 10% overall. If we get 1% of the fleet moved to EV, that is a 0.1% reduction in pollution. Wouldn't it make more sense to try to cut gas consumption by even .2% across the entire fleet? Every gallon we don't burn is a gallon that doesn't produce any pollution anywhere. It seems much more realizable and probably much cheaper to go from 20.0 mpg to 20.04 mpg across the board. And/or promote tele-commuting, car-pooling, etc. I wonder how many EV drivers might avoid a car-pooling situation, because the few extra miles out of their way might put them dangerously close to their range limitation? Wouldn't take many to offset the marginal (if any) gains from the rest of the EV fleet. Note that this range limitation does not apply to the Volt, since it has the ICE range-extender, but is applicable to pure EVs.

Just googled, the US 'fleet' is ~ 250 M cars, so 2.5M EVs required to hit 1% of the fleet.

Sorry to say, but I think the EVs future looks bleaker than ever before, because we now have better data. And before anyone says it - no, EVs are not on the same track as computers in cost/size/performance. They are far too close to their theoretical limits to allow for that scale of improvement.

-ERD50
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Old 12-18-2011, 08:47 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
I know you and I differ on the value of EVs, but I'll tackle this again. And for perspective, I was always looking forward to owning an EV, but my current understanding of the facts has turned me off to them.
I think there is a difference between your understanding of the facts and facts themselves

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Interesting that you qualified that statement with 'on the west coast'. From that Scientific American article, some areas of the west coast were about the only areas where the grid was clean enough (from high % of natural gas and hydro) to make an EV cleaner than a non-plug-in-hybrid.
My mention of 'on the West Coast', was meant as an example not as a limiting qualifier. Yes there are other areas in the US that have a lot of coal pollution but there are many areas other than just a select area of the West Coast where EV's are cleaner than gas burning cars.
And if you aren't charging off the grid but your own renewable resources the advantages in terms of pollution are huge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
heh-heh, I missed your typo. Maybe I do agree with the first two lines (I suspect EVs will be here for good this time. Not.)
You got me there I appreciate you addressing my intended meaning rather than my typo

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
But obviously, that is not what you meant. But I disagree with your intended line. EVs haven't taken Europe by storm, and with their high petrol prices and generally shorter commutes, you would expect them to lead the way. IF they aren't selling like gang-busters there, how can we expect many sales here? Makes no sense to me.
All else being the same, I would expect EV's in Europe to take off more quickly than in the US. The latest I heard sales in Europe have only been restricted by the quantity that the makers can build (looking at EV's produced by Nissan). I know there's been small startup companies that have had trouble. But that is not unusual for small startup companies anywhere.

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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
They are still too expensive, the range is too low, and the pollution offsets aren't good enough.
New technology is almost always more expensive. That hurdle doesn't mean the new expensive product is bound to failure. Additionally you have some electric vehicles that aren't that much more expensive than a gas burning vehicle. I know you don't like subsidies, neither do I. However, as far as the cost to the public currently, the base model Nissan Leaf is priced similarly to the base model of the Prius.

It also seemed to be under the assumption that the measure of success of an EV is tied solely to its cost, the amount of pollution, and your definition of 'enough range'.

Another excellent reason to be driving an EV is the critical financial situation our nation finds itself in due to importing half the oil we need.

An excellent reason for the US to try to expand the market of EV's is that right now our economy is crushed by high gas prices. We would be much better off if we were more reliant on our own energy sources, be that oil, coal, solar, natural gas etc.

Some people buy EV's simply because they are a better car
They're quieter, smoother and simply a pleasure to drive. Even if it weren't for the pollution factor, I'd be driving one.

Once again, I am not saying electric cars will work for everyone. Neither will a Prius, motorcycle, or pickup truck. Those other vehicles seem to be selling quite well and not in danger of disappearing anytime soon. Likewise I don't see EV's disappearing anytime soon either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Sorry to say, but I think the EVs future looks bleaker than ever before, because we now have better data...
-ERD50
In their first year in mass production approximately 15,000 EV's have been sold in the US. For the first time in my lifetime I've actually been able to purchase one (two if you count the Volt as an EV).
That is more than ever before so you'll forgive me if I think the EV's future looks brighter than ever before.

*************edit****************

appologies, I meant to include these references at this link:
http://www.calcars.org/calcars-news/797.html
While the link goes to a 'pro ev' site, there are references at that site to a very detailed study and some wonderful links to other resources.
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:39 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Zathras View Post
I think there is a difference between your understanding of the facts and facts themselves
That may be, much of this is complex and I may have got some of it wrong. If you can correct me on any point, please do.


Quote:
My mention of 'on the West Coast', was meant as an example not as a limiting qualifier. Yes there are other areas in the US that have a lot of coal pollution but there are many areas other than just a select area of the West Coast where EV's are cleaner than gas burning cars.
My recollection of that Sci American graphic was that for MOST of the US, the EV produced more carbon than a hybrid, or any positive delta was really marginal (a few %). Very few places showed a significant advantage.


Quote:
And if you aren't charging off the grid but your own renewable resources the advantages in terms of pollution are huge.
That is not so. It is a twisted argument that conveniently ignores the fact that energy is fungible.

If I generate 1 MWHr of green power, I can use it power an EV, or I can just put it back in the grid. Either way, the end result is that 1 MWhr less was generated by a conventional power plant. The existence of an EV does not change that equation - it's a wash.

So the argument really goes back to EV vs hybrid.

Further, if I put it back in the grid, I've eased the load on the grid. Since solar often coincides with peak energy usage (A/C), putting it back in the grid can lessen the need to start up relatively inefficient 'peaker' plants.


Quote:
All else being the same, I would expect EV's in Europe to take off more quickly than in the US. The latest I heard sales in Europe have only been restricted by the quantity that the makers can build (looking at EV's produced by Nissan). I know there's been small startup companies that have had trouble. But that is not unusual for small startup companies anywhere.
I think that if there were demand, they would find a way to fill it. I guess we will see.


Quote:
However, as far as the cost to the public currently, the base model Nissan Leaf is priced similarly to the base model of the Prius.
Can you provide links? A quick google showed a pretty big $ delta for me, even with the subsidy. And the range issue really does not make them equivalent cars for a large number of people. And if these are going to make a dent, they need to be attractive to a large number of people.


Quote:
Another excellent reason to be driving an EV is the critical financial situation our nation finds itself in due to importing half the oil we need.
As I said, there seem to be far more cost effective ways to reduce oil consumption. Lets use them.

Quote:
An excellent reason for the US to try to expand the market of EV's is that right now our economy is crushed by high gas prices.
So we should fight high gas prices by buying expensive EVs that don't have an economic payback versus the gas consumption? That is not a solution, that is cutting of your nose off to spite your face.


Quote:
We would be much better off if we were more reliant on our own energy sources, be that oil, coal, solar, natural gas etc.
Too bad that EVs will barely make a dent in that. And I'm not sure that burning more coal and destroying more mountaintops and habitat and polluting rivers with the runoff and the acid rain and mercury issues are really preferable to the methods used to extract and burn oil in modern cars with catalytic converters and ECMs.

Quote:
Some people buy EV's simply because they are a better car
They're quieter, smoother and simply a pleasure to drive. Even if it weren't for the pollution factor, I'd be driving one.
Which is why I hoped to be driving one by now. And I'm disappointed that it isn't a good enough option for me yet, and as we have seen, the pollution angle is mostly smoke and mirrors.

I could mention the subsidy issue again here, but you know how I feel.


Quote:
That is more than ever before so you'll forgive me if I think the EV's future looks brighter than ever before.
You don't need my forgiveness , but I still think you are wrong.

And thanks for the links, I will read those later when I have more time.

-ERD50
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:08 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by zathras
An excellent reason for the US to try to expand the market of EV's is that right now our economy is crushed by high gas prices. We would be much better off if we were more reliant on our own energy sources, be that oil, coal, solar, natural gas etc.
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
So we should fight high gas prices by buying expensive EVs that don't have an economic payback versus the gas consumption? That is not a solution, that is cutting of your nose off to spite your face.
+1

That's the statement that really left me thinking HUH?
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Old 12-18-2011, 07:43 PM   #146
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That may be, much of this is complex and I may have got some of it wrong. If you can correct me on any point, please do.
I will let the research articles I posted do much of that. I could summarize, but since you mentioned you would review them, that will most likely do a better job than I could in summary.


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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
My recollection of that Sci American graphic was that for MOST of the US, the EV produced more carbon than a hybrid, or any positive delta was really marginal (a few %). Very few places showed a significant advantage.
Unfortunately I could not find the article you mention. The closest article I found was this one: Your Car Would Have to Get 70 MPG to Be as Clean as an Electric Car, Study Finds: Scientific American. At least in terms of the topic. However the conclusion was very different.


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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
That is not so. It is a twisted argument that conveniently ignores the fact that energy is fungible.

If I generate 1 MWHr of green power, I can use it power an EV, or I can just put it back in the grid. Either way, the end result is that 1 MWhr less was generated by a conventional power plant. The existence of an EV does not change that equation - it's a wash.
In some ways I agree with you, but not completely.
It is a wash, if the person would be generating their own power regardless of owning an EV or not.
If, for example, someone purchased a solar PV system specifically to offset the amount of electricity their EV would use then the advantage is still there. Likewise, if someone started conserving more energy because they became more aware of energy use then that was a advantage inspired by the EV.
Alternatively, if someone produces all of their houses electricity needs as well as the electricity used by their EV's and the advantages once again present.

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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
So the argument really goes back to EV vs hybrid.
I don't think it really does. I think the basic argument is about the most efficient vehicle for a particular person's needs.
EVs simply won't work for some people. Likewise hybrids won't work for some people. And PHEV's won't be the most efficient vehicle for some people. It is a continuum and there is no solution that will fit for everyone.

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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
I think that if there were demand, they would find a way to fill it. I guess we will see.
Very true, time will tell.


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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Can you provide links? A quick google showed a pretty big $ delta for me, even with the subsidy. And the range issue really does not make them equivalent cars for a large number of people. And if these are going to make a dent, they need to be attractive to a large number of people.
www.toyota.com - Toyota Configurator
Base price of a Prius II (lowest I could find, not sure where Prius I is) is $24,380. Small print indicates this may vary by region (I'm in the midwest).
www.nissanusa.com - Build Your Nissan | Nissan USA
Base price listed for the Nissan Leaf (again, most basic model) is $32,780. Or $25,280 after rebate (which we both agree shouldn't be there, but since it is...).

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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
As I said, there seem to be far more cost effective ways to reduce oil consumption. Lets use them.
Completely agreed. But why throw out one method, when the others don't appear to be getting the job done?

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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
So we should fight high gas prices by buying expensive EVs that don't have an economic payback versus the gas consumption? That is not a solution, that is cutting of your nose off to spite your face.
The leather seats and a Mercedes never have an economic payback. Would you argue that Mercedes are doomed for this reason?
Again, if you don't want an expensive EV buy an inexpensive one. Yes currently they are difficult to find but it is a new product. As economy of scale kicks in and they will become more price competitive. This is the way many new products start out.
How much the price comes down in the future will help determine the size of the market. If the prices stay more expensive (without rebates) I fully expect the market to stay very small. Just as the market for Corvettes and Porsche Boxster's is very small.


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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Too bad that EVs will barely make a dent in that. And I'm not sure that burning more coal and destroying more mountaintops and habitat and polluting rivers with the runoff and the acid rain and mercury issues are really preferable to the methods used to extract and burn oil in modern cars with catalytic converters and ECMs.
I would say mountaintop mining and shale oil production are equally horrendous. We really need to clean up our electric grid. But that is true whether or not EV's catch on.

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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Which is why I hoped to be driving one by now. And I'm disappointed that it isn't a good enough option for me yet, and as we have seen, the pollution angle is mostly smoke and mirrors.
If you're waiting for a perfect solution you'll be waiting a very long time.
The pollution angle is very valid and are definite improvement but they are greater or lesser depending on your local electric grid (and yes in a few cases nonexistent).
However each year the electric grid is getting cleaner and cleaner and each year oil is getting dirtier and dirtier. So at some point I expect it will become enough of an advantage to you to reconsider. Assuming of course that you are one of the many people for whom the range would not be an issue.
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Old 12-18-2011, 07:55 PM   #147
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I don't mind a person treating themselves to a Chevy Volt. But I do mind paying for part of it.
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:46 PM   #148
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I will let the research articles I posted do much of that. I could summarize, but since you mentioned you would review them, that will most likely do a better job than I could in summary.
I couldn't seem to read the pdf reports, I dl'd them but my pdf reader couldn't open them. I'll try later on DWs Mac, but I don't usually have issues like that on this Linux/Chromium browser.

I think I found one of them thru other means, but it seems to all by PHEV centric rather than BEV, so I dunno.


Quote:
Unfortunately I could not find the article you mention.
It was the one I linked to earlier.

The Dirty Truth about Plug-in Hybrids, Made Interactive: Scientific American

They do seem to come to somewhat different conclusions (but maybe not, read on). Your article is based on Europe Power (46% carbon free), but they seem to say the #'s wouldn't be all that different for 100% coal? That doesn't make sense to me.

But even if you drove an EV on 100% coal power – which is no longer possible in Europe – you would make an electric car only 13% more environmentally unfriendly than one run on 46% clean power.

Maybe their term 'environmentally unfriendly' weights carbon emissions lighter than other things? The other article I linked was counting carbon footprints. Because their math does not add up for carbon alone - going from 46% 'non-carbon' to 0% 'non-carbon' would almost double the carbon emissions. So how can it only be 13% more environmentally unfriendly?

RE: my response to your statement that 'And if you aren't charging off the grid but your own renewable resources the advantages in terms of pollution are huge.'
Quote:
In some ways I agree with you, but not completely.
It is a wash, if the person would be generating their own power regardless of owning an EV or not.
If, for example, someone purchased a solar PV system specifically to offset the amount of electricity their EV would use then the advantage is still there. Likewise, if someone started conserving more energy because they became more aware of energy use then that was a advantage inspired by the EV.
Alternatively, if someone produces all of their houses electricity needs as well as the electricity used by their EV's and the advantages once again present.
Sorry, but that's twisted rationalization. I stand by my earlier statement that it is the same net result whether the 'green power' feeds the grid or the EV directly.

Trying to tie the reason the 'green power' was installed to the EV is a real stretch. I could say I got the idea to install some 'green power' while pleasure driving around in my SUV. So therefore, pleasure driving around in SUVs is good for the environment.


RE: saving energy with the most bang-for-the-buck methods

Quote:
Completely agreed. But why throw out one method, when the others don't appear to be getting the job done?
Because it appears it takes far too much input for the output. It is a distraction from better alternatives, and that could actually slow down the implementations that provide real results.


Quote:
The leather seats and a Mercedes never have an economic payback. Would you argue that Mercedes are doomed for this reason?
I think we've been down this road before. Leather seats have value to the customer, and they are not looking at it totally in terms of pure economics, but comfort, prestige, etc (though resale value may play into it?). Now, some people will buy EVs for 'green-prestige' or other reasons - fine (but I gotta raise the ugly subsidy head on this one - why am I paying for their desires?) - but you are trying to make the case that EVs are a significant good for the environment. Then that case needs to stand on environmental measures, not other reasons people would buy the car. Don't change the subject.


Quote:
As economy of scale kicks in and they will become more price competitive. This is the way many new products start out.
Economy of scale is not the big defining issue here. Batteries are simply too expensive and performance is too poor. Economy of scale won't fix that by much. It's putting the cart before the horse. When (if) batteries reach a good price/perf point, then we can have decently price/perf in an EV. More EVs won't change that significantly. As I've pointed out before, these batteries are based on the same tech used in many other products. There is plenty of motivation out there to drive battery improvements. EVs are a drop in the bucket in comparison.

For a parallel, look at iPods. It wasn't demand that made them smaller and cheaper. It was the progress of technology that allowed them to be made smaller and cheaper, and demand followed that progress. The first several gens of iPod could not have 5GB of flash memory just because the market 'demanded it', they used mini-hard drives because flash memory just wasn't that far along in technology yet. Technology progresses in a step-wise pace. A small increased demand cannot influence that to any large degree.


Quote:
If you're waiting for a perfect solution you'll be waiting a very long time.
Not waiting for perfect, I'm waiting for competitive.


Quote:
However each year the electric grid is getting cleaner and cleaner and each year oil is getting dirtier and dirtier. So at some point I expect it will become enough of an advantage to you to reconsider. Assuming of course that you are one of the many people for whom the range would not be an issue.
And at some point I will (when they are competitive). But until then, why push them? It would be like pushing flash memory in those 1st gen iPods - ' Dear customers, we know that the current state of the art in flash means we need to charge you a whole lot more for these iPods, and you can only have 1/4 the number of songs than if we stuck with the mini-hard-drive, but flash is the future, so use it now before it is ready for the market'. That is in essence what you are saying. Doesn't really make sense, does it?

The problem with range is that it wouldn't be an issue for me most of the time. But every couple months it would be, and sometimes it's not predictable. Recently, I loaned my car to DD when hers needed repairs. I couldn't do that with an EV, because range would be a problem for her (she would not have even made it back to school). And that is a serious drawback. Why would I want to buy a car that I can't use for my routine (or unexpected) longer trips? Or have to worry about taking a side trip on a medium length drive (let's see, I need to go 30 miles out and 30 miles back, heats on and traffic is bad so I may be close to max range. Oh, got a call - can I make a side trip 20 miles out of my way now, that will save me time/miles later? Hmmm maybe not?). I don't really want that restriction/complexity in my life.

Enough (too much!) for one night, later -ERD50
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Update on those post-crash fires:
Old 12-19-2011, 03:13 PM   #149
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Update on those post-crash fires:

This looks like a pretty sober review - and for the record, I'll repeat that I don't think these post-crash fires are a big deal. But I do think they need consideration. 10 Gallons of gasoline is dangerous too, but we have ~ 100 years experience with the ways things can go wrong. This newer technology carries risks that we need to learn about yet.

AP Source: Coolant leak likely cause of fires after Chevrolet Volt crash tests - The Washington Post


emph mine

Quote:
The liquid solution that cools the Chevrolet Voltís batteries is the likely cause of fires that broke out inside the electric car after government crash tests, a person briefed on the matter said. ...

The chemical reaction that stores and discharges energy from the battery is not the culprit, and engineers believe that if they can stop the coolant from leaking, they can stop the fires, the person said. ...

On Nov. 25, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration opened an investigation into Volt battery fires, which occurred from seven days to three weeks after crash tests by the agency. ...


GM has said that no Volts have caught fire in real-world crashes. The company is notified of any crashes through its OnStar safety system, and it dispatches a team to drain the batteries within 48 hours. GM said NHTSA didnít drain the battery packs of energy after the tests, but the automaker acknowledged that it hadnít told the agency of its procedures back in June when the first fire occurred.

The Nissan Leaf, a fully electric car and the Voltís main competitor, has not had any similar fires after crash tests or real-world crashes, Nissan said. The Leaf battery is cooled by air rather than liquid.
Sounds like a manageable and 'fixable' problem. Not much different than the precaution of draining the gas tank of a car after an accident (which I assume is SOP?).

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Old 12-19-2011, 03:38 PM   #150
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A brief history of the electric car. As told by PBS 1832 through late 2009


Timeline: History of the Electric Car . NOW on PBS


An interesting bit is that GM crushed a bunch EV1s in 2005. In 1900 28% of cars produced in the US were electric.
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Old 12-27-2011, 08:34 PM   #151
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The liquid solution that cools the Chevrolet Volt’s batteries is the likely cause of fires...
We've been cooling things in cars for decades. I wonder why they're having problems here.

Quote:
into Volt battery fires, which occurred from seven days to three weeks after crash tests by the agency.
You mean that the cars didn't immediately burst into fireballs, incinerating the crash test dummies, as the media reports seemed to imply?
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:06 PM   #152
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I know this is ancient history but in the 1970s I worked at an aerospace company that was working on an electric vehicle. While parked but "on" the electronic controls failed and the car took off cross country before crashing into a creek. We ran to the crash site and there was some pretty spectacular electrical arcing that led to a fire. The FD responded, slashing some cables with a fire axe and putting out the fire with extinguishers. Modern designs probably take into consideration how to contain all that stored energy in the event of a crash.
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Old 01-28-2012, 04:57 PM   #153
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No dice for one Chevy Volt owner living in a condo:

Condo bans Volt owner from plugging in

Couldn't the have used a Kill-a-Watt to demonstrate how much plugging in to charge would cost?
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Old 01-28-2012, 05:08 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by easysurfer View Post
No dice for one Chevy Volt owner living in a condo:

Condo bans Volt owner from plugging in

Couldn't the have used a Kill-a-Watt to demonstrate how much plugging in to charge would cost?
I think this says more about the condo board than the Volt.
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Old 01-28-2012, 05:18 PM   #155
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I think this says more about the condo board than the Volt.
Totally agree about the condo board.

I live in a condo and had the same thought that if one was to get a plug-in hybrid, no way would they allow a resident to plug in the common grounds to charge up the vechile. Unless of course, hybrids become really popular and they decide to charge everyone to install the charging stations.

The pros/cons of condo living.
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Old 01-28-2012, 06:20 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travelover View Post
I think this says more about the condo board than the Volt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by easysurfer View Post
Totally agree about the condo board.
The pros/cons of condo living.
When the man who brought Tetris out from behind the Iron Curtain became the first resident of Hawaii to own a Tesla, he wanted to put a recharging receptacle in his condo garage.

It's a really, really, really nice condo. I think the monthly HOA fees are more than my mortgage payment.

The condo board said "No."

The owner said "I'll pay for the installation, I'll put a separate meter on it, and I'll pay the bills for the meter."

The condo board said "No" again.

Their logic:
"What if everyone here got a Tesla, what would we do then? How could we ever accommodate all those electrical receptacles in the garage?"
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Old 01-29-2012, 08:38 AM   #157
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Slightly off topic: What ere these newfangled cars made of? Prii (Priuses?)are melting from reflected light.

Woman Claims Neighborís Energy Efficient Windows Are Melting Her Toyota Prius ę CBS Los Angeles
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:47 PM   #158
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Some people buy EV's simply because they are a better car
They're quieter, smoother and simply a pleasure to drive. Even if it weren't for the pollution factor, I'd be driving one.

Once again, I am not saying electric cars will work for everyone. Neither will a Prius, motorcycle, or pickup truck. Those other vehicles seem to be selling quite well and not in danger of disappearing anytime soon. Likewise I don't see EV's disappearing anytime soon either.


That is more than ever before so you'll forgive me if I think the EV's future looks brighter than ever before.
+1

Thank you, Zathras --- for your thoughts.

For the record, after reading everyone's comments and test driving a Volt, I made up my mind and bought a 2012 Volt right before Thanksgiving. To date, I have only had to put 4 gallons of gas in the tank to replenish it. It is by far, EV or not, the nicest, most comfortable, quiet, luxurious ride I've ever had. And now that gas prices in my area are almost $4.00 per gallon, I am doubly glad that I bought the Volt.

On the matter of subsidies, I am anti it as well but I think all of us are "paying" the subsidies for many others in so many ways. For example, I have never benefited from the Child Tax Credit, etc. but I've never begrudged parents who have many children who received those tax credits etc.

I do value and respect ALL opinions and comments received. They were all valuable and gave me much to ponder. I absolutely recommend a test drive in a Volt for any doubters not necessarily to evaluate whether or not to purchase an EV but just to feel really proud of what an American automobile company was able to manufacture. It is quite an accomplishment for GM.

High Five to Zathras, fellow Volt owner. And thank you ALL, again, for replying to my OP.

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Old 02-29-2012, 01:03 PM   #159
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Congratulations on your new Volt! I'm glad you found a car that you really like a lot. It wouldn't be my choice, but to me that is one of the great aspects of living in this country - - we can each choose what makes us happiest and seems like the best deal to us according to what we value.

I have heard rumors that gas will be going up to $5/gallon before too long. Either way, sounds like it won't affect you much.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:08 PM   #160
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Thank you, W2R!
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