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Old 07-16-2017, 02:30 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by MissMolly View Post
Why should taxpayers be responsible for her care when she has money to pay for it if it becomes necessary?
Not singling out BCG here, but I see this attitude about getting the gov to cover expenses and dole out food stamps, etc becoming more frequent. It's getting rampant in our society and I see it in our family also. But that's a topic for another discussion.
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:40 PM   #22
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This is an interesting thread that many of us may face, so might I suggest getting off the Medicaid discussion, which is not part of the OP, and getting back to the OP 's question about his DM's finances.
I agree with you, although there is some interweaving of elder financial planning and qualifying for government services. They aren't completely separate questions. Thus my suggestion that OP and his sibs let their mother spend down her own money over the next decade+ rather than start pitching in now to keep her savings more intact. As others have suggested, eventually consulting with an elder lawyer would be a good idea.

And I'll repeat my suggestion to OP that TIME and EFFORT will likely become more of an issue than money. That's how it's worked out at our house. Negotiating who makes the time commitments is often more difficult than negotiating who pays what, especially when it appears the need for the kids to pay for anything is years away.
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:52 PM   #23
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I agree with you, although there is some interweaving of elder financial planning and qualifying for government services. They aren't completely separate questions. Thus my suggestion that OP and his sibs let their mother spend down her own money over the next decade+ rather than start pitching in now to keep her savings more intact. As others have suggested, eventually consulting with an elder lawyer would be a good idea.

And I'll repeat my suggestion to OP that TIME and EFFORT could likely become more of an issue than money. That's how it's worked out at our house. Negotiating who makes the time commitments is sometimes more difficult than negotiating who pays what, especially when it appears the need for the kids to pay for anything is years away.
Sorry, I could have been clearer. My request was to drop the argument about giving away the assets and claiming Medicaid. That's a divisive discussion that just sidetracks the thread and was not what the OP asks.

I totally agree with your suggestion to consult an elder financial planning specialist. Also spending down her savings, but combined with the OP's idea to begin asking some family members for regular contributions - as long as those funds hare held for her benefit, not made part of her estate, and designated as "last $ spending" after the other assets are depleted. Not all siblings may choose to contribute, and it involves a fair amount of trust between siblings, but it can be a simple, private and effective way to help DM.
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:03 PM   #24
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I'm a little confused. The OP stated "her four siblings are middle and upper middle income and will be able to help." Did the OP mean her children?
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:03 PM   #25
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Absolutely don't do anything like this without a thorough consultation with an elder law attorney in your state who is an expert in spend-down strategies.
Hahahah, +1 This I agree with 1000%. Big money items like this need expert guidance. But its another option for discussion for the elder care attorney consultation.
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:12 PM   #26
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My dad recently passed away and my three siblings and I are committed to making sure my mom can financially maintain her standard of living during her remaining years.

Her four siblings are in the middle and upper middle class income level so should be able to support her financially if her investments run out or she has major medical expenses or needs LTC.
I interpreted the second paragraph to mean that DM had four siblings. But perhaps I was wrong. Maybe these four siblings are her children? Perhaps the OP could clarify.
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:14 PM   #27
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If your Mom has no cognitive issues she may very likely decide how to live on the $ she has herself. My Mom was 73 when my Dad died and her income decreased and she still had some but not a ton of savings left. She never consulted any of us but figured it out for herself and if we would have tried to make suggestions she would have been offended. She even prepaid most of her funeral expenses and told us to sell her car to pay for a sit down dinner when she died for all the guests which is what we did plus any outstanding bills she may have had. She never would take $ from anyone. Also at her age she may die before using her $. I would discuss possible issues/solutions with sibs for if/when the time comes but not take any action at this time.
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:15 PM   #28
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I interpreted the second paragraph to mean that DM had four siblings. But perhaps I was wrong. Maybe these four siblings are her children? Perhaps the OP could clarify.
I think OP's mother had 4 children, the 4 siblings.
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:29 PM   #29
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OP's idea to begin asking some family members for regular contributions
IMHO opinion, it's too soon. OP's DM is 78 and her money will last (per OP) until she is 90ish. Lots of things can change in those years. It's hard to motivate people to contribute money so far in advance of a possible need and no matter how the trustee of the funds managed the investments, someone would always be disappointed. It just seems to be opening doors to family disagreements that possibly could be avoided since it's unknown if the funds will actually ever be needed.

If OP really wants to do it, then at least create a goal. For example: "Accumulate funds by the time mom is 90 to take her to 95."
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Old 07-16-2017, 08:07 PM   #30
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Looked at immediateannuity and if you bought one for TX... the payments are $766 per month for the rest of her life... that is over the $9K max you say you need...

This would last her WHOLE life... no worry that the market goes down etc... (I would not put much in the market anyhow... maybe 30%)....


That means the kids will not have to kick in anything for a few years until inflation ups her expenses...


I would not be putting money aside for a potential problem that could be years in the future.... yes, if one sibling dies then the burden falls on the remaining... that is life...

BTW, at some point in time she might get medicaid (or some other gvmt payments) when she is broke....
+1 I would do one of two things... either buy an immediate annuity or put it in Wellesley and set up the $8-9k a year as monthly automatic withdrawals .... then wait and see if she needs help later and address that amongst her children if it is necessary.
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Old 07-16-2017, 08:15 PM   #31
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This is an overwhelming time to purchase an immediate annuity which provides over $9,000 per year for life. The incremental help that would be needed would therefore be minimal and limited to inflation effects after the $9,000 was not enough. At a minimum to take 60K and have $5,500 per year and the remainder from the other 40 would be the alternative — That would drop the withdrawal rate on the remainder funds to $2,500 per year if she could get by on 8K per year. That would drop the withdrawal rate to 6.25% and allow for a reasonable chance.


To take market chances with those all of those limited funds at 8 % or more of the portfolio would be foolhardy with such a high withdrawal rate. Any market decline would wipe out the portfolio. Merely earning the inflation rate would enable the portfolio to last to age 90.
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:06 PM   #32
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Hi Running Man. I have assisted with asset management for 3 of 4 parents who passed (including in-laws). My advice: do not begin collecting money unless needed. But I don't believe it will be needed in this case. You can offer to help your mom set up a budget. Other than that, as she spends down her assets, she will become eligible for low income senior apt (can sell her mobile home then) and even Medicaid if she needs Nursing home. Also if your father served in a war, look at the aid and attendance benefit from VA for widows worth more than $1000 a month if she has less than xx amount of cash in bank. My
Mom was able to get Medicaid worth the diff in her SS of $1500 a mo and the $6k a mo for skilled nursing. She just had it for 4 mos before she died. There's a lot of options for seniors and it's not wrong to apply once she is eligible. I would just offer budgeting assistance at this time. When our Dad needed 24 hour care at home, the 4 of us kids each took a 12 hour shift per week to help my parents defray the expenses (cost was $75 a day then-19 years ago. Finally after 6 mos we threw in towel (we had full time jobs and young kids). He lasted another 2 years and they burned up their life savings of 90k. We made sure our mom got LTC ins. Lesson learned. Lots of assistance out there however. Your mom and your Dad paid taxes all their life. It's not a handout. Never presume your siblings are on the same page as you. I also think you are jumping the gun here.
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:46 AM   #33
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Like a couple of others I read this as assuming that the mother's siblings (OPs aunts and uncles) would contribute which to me sounds very questionable. They will be more worried about covering their own situations and will expect OP and company to take care of mom. If she is talking about her three siblings and herself she should start discussing it with them now so they will know what to expect if the situation changes.
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:13 AM   #34
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Looked at immediateannuity and if you bought one for TX... the payments are $766 per month for the rest of her life... that is over the $9K max you say you need...

This would last her WHOLE life... no worry that the market goes down etc... (I would not put much in the market anyhow... maybe 30%)....


That means the kids will not have to kick in anything for a few years until inflation ups her expenses...


I would not be putting money aside for a potential problem that could be years in the future.... yes, if one sibling dies then the burden falls on the remaining... that is life...

BTW, at some point in time she might get medicaid (or some other gvmt payments) when she is broke....
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:19 AM   #35
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I'm with those that say her getting all of her assets out of her name now - including the trailer - is the way to go so that when the 5 yr Medicaid look back comes there's likely nothing to find (Years ago we did that for MIL. Turned out it wasn't necessary.). Put those assets in one of her children's name plus build up a pot in a child's name. That assumes all the siblings are trustworthy & the pot's remaining assets, if any, can be redistributed back tot he siblings.
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:39 AM   #36
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Threads like this is one of the many reasons this site is so great! Definitely very informative!
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:49 AM   #37
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OP was it at your DM's request that you took over money management? If she is of sound mind I feel she should be involved in these conversations.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:00 AM   #38
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Why should taxpayers be responsible for her care when she has money to pay for it
Rant on.

+1 - Just because everybody does it (well it seems a lot of folks do) doesn't mean it's right. Unfortunately many of our "systems" today seem to almost promote such unethical behavior. Justify it in your mind (as smart, sly, crafty, acceptable, sop, etc) anyway you want but it's cheating and sponging off of your fellow taxpayers. Who do people that do things like this, think they are? Elected officials? It's no wonder why so many younger folks today think the way they do.

Rant off.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:26 AM   #39
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I'm with those that say her getting all of her assets out of her name now - including the trailer - is the way to go so that when the 5 yr Medicaid look back comes there's likely nothing to find (Years ago we did that for MIL. Turned out it wasn't necessary.). Put those assets in one of her children's name plus build up a pot in a child's name. That assumes all the siblings are trustworthy & the pot's remaining assets, if any, can be redistributed back tot he siblings.
Nope.
Beside the ethical/moral aspect of this being wrong. OP's mother simply does not have enough money to make this worth it, in 5 years she will have spent about 1/3 of the money anyhow.

Also the OP's Mother is independent, and this move would suddenly remove all her independence and subject her to elder abuse very easily.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:33 AM   #40
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IMO you are rushing in too soon . Your Mom needs time to transition to her new status . She may not need your help for many years to come and when she does it may be more in the way of physical help than financial . In fact rushing in too soon may halt her learning to become independent . I can say this because my Mother was widowed at 64 with the same type of financial situation but less savings .She lived to 99 and did fine financially with some help from my sisters as she got older .Sure her life changed after my Dad died but that is to be expected . Lot's of widows live on a less amount and do fine . Give her a chance but be prepared to help later . It may never be equal among the siblings so accept that .
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