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Old 02-24-2010, 07:25 AM   #21
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I don't know about Toyotas, but on my Escape hybrid you can put it into reverse at any speed and it will not engage until you stop, as it is computer over ridden. It would be logical to me to have this function in other electronically operated transmissions to prevent accidents or damage to the transmission.

Given that the throttle, anti lock brakes, stability control, electronic shift transmission, traction control and air bags are all operated by a computer it seems inevitable that you will get some occasional wild interactions. Anyone here run Windows?
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:03 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by ls99 View Post
Most new transmissions, regardless of type of knob, lever or push-button are electrically shifted via solenoids under the control of one or more computers. The programming will not allow certain modes unless particular speed conditions are met, regardless where you put the lever.

Unless you truly have a fully mechanically controlled transmission. I recently discovered this by looking at some 1994 Jaguar control schemes.

On my 1999 Suburban the shifting of the tranny (4L80E) is computer controlled.
Come to think of it, when I took off the transmission oil pan of my 95 minivan to change the fluid filter, I saw a lot of wires routed inside. OMG! Is there a chance I might suffer a hair raising accident and to get insult added to my injury by people saying I am an idiot, whether or not I survive such an ordeal?

Thanks goodness, both of my old cars have conventional ignition switches which really cut off the power to "HAL" , and not another "user input device" to the allmighty all-knowing computer. They also have conventional accelerator pedals that are mechanically linked to the throttle butterfly air valve. And their floor mats got built-in hooks.

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NW-Bound - that is the gear selector on a Prius...fully electronic. When you change directions, you just point the joystick forward or back and it automatically pops back to the central position.

R
I have posted here that I might consider a hybrid car as my next vehicle. However, until I am ready, I have not visited any dealer nor driven one. I guess I will wait a while until the dust settles.

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I don't know about Toyotas, but on my Escape hybrid you can put it into reverse at any speed and it will not engage until you stop, as it is computer over ridden. It would be logical to me to have this function in other electronically operated transmissions to prevent accidents or damage to the transmission.

Given that the throttle, anti lock brakes, stability control, electronic shift transmission, traction control and air bags are all operated by a computer it seems inevitable that you will get some occasional wild interactions. Anyone here run Windows?
No, it's all the idiotic user's fault who does not hold his mouth the right way as he clicks the mouse button.

Have no fear! I wonder if some of the desktop programmers have migrated to other industries, including automotive manufacturers. I recall an incidence in the US Navy, where an operator entered in a wrong input, causing a "divide-by-zero" overflow, which resulted in the ship being immobilized until they could fix the problem, because the same computer ran the propulsion system.

An experiment in the late 90s by the US Army to equip the foot soldiers with portable digital electronic gears resulted in this conclusion by a reviewer that I read in an electronic trade magazine.
"Ready... Aim... Reboot!"
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:34 AM   #23
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Does anyone remember the Audi "unintended acceleration" craze from the 80s. That turned out to be people pressing the accelerator when they thought they were pressing the brake. 60 Minutes made a big deal of the acceleration story but said not a word when the true cause was found.

I do not now nor ever have owned a Toyota. I'm just suspicious of all the publicity going on right now.
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:59 AM   #24
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Find it a bit far-fetched that while trying to deal with a car that suddenly accelerated to 100mph, experienced a complete loss of throttle, brake and transmission controls that she could find time to call her husband on her cell phone..."hi honey, how is your day going?.. it seems like I have been going 100mph all day..say, could you get me a phone number off the back of the phone book?."
I know what happened, she called her husband and her husband reminded her: "no hunny, take both your feet off the pedal on the right and put them on the pedal on the left to stop the car"
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:48 AM   #25
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But what if what she says is true ? How many people called their loved ones on Sept.11 while there plane was on a suicide mission ?
Those people were passengers, they didn't have to control/fly the airplane.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:58 AM   #26
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Until it actually happens to you, no one can predict what you will do or say in a life threatening situation - well, almost. The vast majority of the final words on the cockpit recorder just prior to impact are "Oh sh!t!".
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:58 AM   #27
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Those people were passengers, they didn't have to control/fly the airplane.

You are right . If my car was barreling out of control there is no way I could make a phone call .
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:57 AM   #28
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OMG! Is there a chance I might suffer a hair raising accident and to get insult added to my injury by people saying I am an idiot, whether or not I survive such an ordeal?
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Until it actually happens to you, no one can predict what you will do or say in a life threatening situation - well, almost. The vast majority of the final words on the cockpit recorder just prior to impact are "Oh sh!t!".
Exactly. Why are the kool-aid drinkers so willing to give Toyota a pass and blame the driver? Obviously there are mechanical problems or they wouldn't be RECALLING 8 MILLION VEHICLES. Sheesh.
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:59 AM   #29
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Oh, and about the interviews... I noticed the president of Toyota N. America using the old sympathy routine as well. Apparently his brother was killed in a auto accident years ago and "not a day goes by that he doesn't think of it." Both sides are pulling out all stops IMO.
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Old 02-24-2010, 11:10 AM   #30
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my earlier post i said it was operator error and i was attacked here.
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Old 02-24-2010, 11:15 AM   #31
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my earlier post i said it was operator error and i was attacked here.
Have you recovered from your wounds?
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Old 02-24-2010, 11:30 AM   #32
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Maybe I am naive, but I tended to believe her. If I had a voice activated cell system and thought I was probably going to die, I would try to call my DH to let him know exactly what was happening and to hear his voice again and to tell him that I loved him one last time.

Wasn't there a police officer and his family involved in a crash with a Toyota? I would think that a police officer would be pretty near the top of the list of people knowing how to control vehicles and avoid crashes. I can't remember if anyone died in that accident. They did call 911, but I think that it was his DW that called and she was not driving.

If this is all the driver's fault, why are there millions of cars being recalled? Why is Toyota's stock going down and why are they being asked to testify before Congress. Why are they testifying that the fixes they have already done to cars, might not take care of the problem?

I personally would like it if it were just driver error. I don't own a Toyota, but I am on the road with lots of Toyotas and hate to think I might be in the path of one with this problem.
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Old 02-24-2010, 11:52 AM   #33
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Most new transmissions, regardless of type of knob, lever or push-button are electrically shifted via solenoids under the control of one or more computers. The programming will not allow certain modes unless particular speed conditions are met, regardless where you put the lever.

Unless you truly have a fully mechanically controlled transmission. I recently discovered this by looking at some 1994 Jaguar control schemes.

On my 1999 Suburban the shifting of the tranny (4L80E) is computer controlled.
Good information, Is99. I haven't had an automatic tranny since I sold my 73 Ford F250 with the C6 trans, so I have no knowledge. Even then, I never tried anything more iffy than low speed "rocking" to get out of snow or mud. I find it very easy to believe that the trans designers made downshifts that would cause over-speeding of the engine and shifts into reverse impossible. After all, under normal circumstances these are negative events.

Ha
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:12 PM   #34
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Have you recovered from your wounds?
never was wounded. I wish the person that was doing the attacking would chime in here. Chp incident still operator error.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:41 PM   #35
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Here's the Audi thing that Nodak mentioned. Very similar to today's events (from here):
Reported sudden unintended acceleration

Audi's U.S. sales fell after a series of recalls from 1982-1987 of Audi 5000 models[13] associated with reported incidents of sudden unintended acceleration linked to six deaths and 700 accidents.[13] At the time, NHTSA was investigating 50 car models from 20 manufacturers for sudden surges of power.[14]
A 60 Minutes report aired November 23, 1986,[15] featuring interviews with six people who had sued Audi after reporting unintended acceleration, showing an Audi 5000 ostensibly suffering a problem when the brake pedal was pushed.[16][17] Subsequent investigation revealed that 60 Minutes had engineered the failure — fitting a canister of compressed air on the passenger-side floor, linked via a hose to a hole drilled into the transmission.[15]
Audi contended, prior to findings by outside investigators,[14] that the problems were caused by driver error, specifically pedal misapplication.[14] Subsequently, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) concluded that the majority of unintended acceleration cases, including all the ones that prompted the 60 Minutes report, were caused by driver error such as confusion of pedals.[18] CBS did not acknowledge the test results of involved government agencies, but did acknowledge the similar results of another study.[19]
With the series of recall campaigns, Audi made several modifications; the first adjusted the distance between the brake and accelerator pedal on automatic-transmission models.[13] Later repairs, of 250,000 cars dating back to 1978, added a device requiring the driver to press the brake pedal before shifting out of park.[13] A legacy of the Audi 5000 and other reported cased of sudden unintended acceleration are intricate gear stick patterns and brake interlock mechanisms to prevent inadvertent shifting into forward or reverse.
Audi’s U.S. sales, which had reached 74,061 in 1985, dropped to 12,283 in 1991 and remained level for three years.[13] — with resale values falling dramatically.[20] Audi subsequently offered increased warranty protection [20] and renamed the affected models — with the 5000 becoming the 100 and 200 in 1989[14] — and only reached the same sales levels again by model year 2000.[13]
A 2010 Business Week article — outlining possible parallels between Audi's experience and 2009–10 Toyota vehicle recalls — noted a class-action lawsuit filed in 1987 by about 7,500 Audi Audi 5000-model owners remains unsettled and is currently being contested in county court in Chicago after appeals at the Illinois state and U.S. federal levels.[13]
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Old 02-24-2010, 02:34 PM   #36
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I personally would like it if it were just driver error. I don't own a Toyota, but I am on the road with lots of Toyotas and hate to think I might be in the path of one with this problem.
^^ Yeah. That.
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Old 02-24-2010, 02:47 PM   #37
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Hmmm - glad I still have a transfer case (4WD).

Audrey
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Old 02-24-2010, 02:55 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by travelover View Post
I don't know about Toyotas, but on my Escape hybrid you can put it into reverse at any speed and it will not engage until you stop, as it is computer over ridden. It would be logical to me to have this function in other electronically operated transmissions to prevent accidents or damage to the transmission.
Yeah - thank goodness for the interlock! I remember pressing "R" accidentally when trying to downshift using the motorhome's transmission keypad. The problem is that my transmission control is on the left out of my line of sight unless I take my eyes off the road. So I have to use it by "feel". Normally this keypad is not even touched other than to switch into drive - but occasionally you have to "assist" the automatic transmission.

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Old 02-24-2010, 06:59 PM   #39
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Koan- can we all know it all, even when we seem to "know" conflicting things?

Ha
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:22 PM   #40
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Until it actually happens to you, no one can predict what you will do or say in a life threatening situation - well, almost. The vast majority of the final words on the cockpit recorder just prior to impact are "Oh sh!t!".
Actually, I can. I pulled out to pass a truck in DW's 65 Ford, floored it and held it there. When I pulled back in and let off the gas it stayed at full throttle. I stuck my toe under the accelerator pedal and lifted it. No change. I turned the key off and drifted to the side of the road.

After all the appropriate 4-letter words, I opened the hood, yanked the linkage into place and drove it for the next 3 years. I didn't even sue Ford. Silly me.
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