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So sad, but amazing
Old 09-08-2013, 09:36 AM   #1
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So sad, but amazing

Sad story about a man killed by SWAT team during hostage situation. Surprising part is the guy was 107, AND was apparently able to fire at officers despite being gassed & use of a "distraction device" (flashbang grenade?). Unclear what his motivation was at the end, but this sure was one tough centenarian.

107-Year-Old Man Killed in SWAT Team Shootout - ArkansasMatters.com - Central Arkansas' Source for News, Weather, and Sports covering Little Rock, North Little Rock, Conway, Cabot, Searcy, Hot Springs, and the rest of Central Arkansas
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Old 09-08-2013, 10:07 AM   #2
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Yea you don't mess with old guys, their tough.

Course firing on L.E. generally ends the same way. They train lots, what many never realize is the no win situation L.E. are in. Even if they knew he was 107, it doesn't matter. Their lives were on the line, contrary to what old movies show, you never try to 'just wing them'.

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Old 09-08-2013, 12:40 PM   #3
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After reading the article, I've got to say that it sounded a lot like an intentional suicide ("by cop"), to me.
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Old 09-08-2013, 04:25 PM   #4
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Geeze, and the poor guy had so many years ahead of him, too.
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Old 09-08-2013, 04:45 PM   #5
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After reading the article, I've got to say that it sounded a lot like an intentional suicide ("by cop"), to me.
I agree. There's much to be sad about in this event.

Many elders get depressed, many suffer from Dementias. Many elders hide these issues from their families. An elder with dementia or depression, seemingly small things can create trama and drama, and worse.

Suicide creates so many 'victims', always many family members impacted. Sometimes multiple families. These victims may spend years blaming themselves for a sick person's choices.

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Old 09-08-2013, 11:49 PM   #6
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These swat teams seem to shoot a lot of people that would have been talked down 30 or 40 years ago. Oh well, I guess they have to use all their dangerous toys to justify the budgets.

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Old 09-09-2013, 09:33 AM   #7
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These swat teams seem to shoot a lot of people that would have been talked down 30 or 40 years ago. Oh well, I guess they have to use all their dangerous toys to justify the budgets.

Ha

Not sure of the statistics of that, but it sometimes feels that way. Of course there could be other reasons.
Look at the work done by Dennis Tueller.

Perhaps his studies changed some training or procedures.

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Old 09-09-2013, 09:55 AM   #8
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Lesson 1 to be learned...don't point a gun at cops. Lesson 2....don't shoot at cops.
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Old 09-09-2013, 10:14 AM   #9
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These swat teams seem to shoot a lot of people that would have been talked down 30 or 40 years ago. Oh well, I guess they have to use all their dangerous toys to justify the budgets.

Ha
He threatened others in the house with a gun, he shot at officers at close range after they had identified themselves, he had a chance to surrender any time during the negotiations, he failed to come out when they fired tear gas into his home. I'm not sure how much more "talking down" is due. He was a threat to the police and to everyone in the neighborhood. If he'd killed someone after the police had a clear opportunity to end the situation, I'm pretty sure we'd be critical of their actions.
But, yes, it was sad.
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Old 09-09-2013, 10:23 AM   #10
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He threatened others in the house with a gun, he shot at officers at close range after they had identified themselves, he had a chance to surrender any time during the negotiations, he failed to come out when they fired tear gas into his home. ...........
I can see his reluctance to surrender. The guy could have gotten 30 years.
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Old 09-09-2013, 10:29 AM   #11
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He threatened others in the house with a gun, he shot at officers at close range after they had identified themselves, he had a chance to surrender any time during the negotiations, he failed to come out when they fired tear gas into his home. I'm not sure how much more "talking down" is due. He was a threat to the police and to everyone in the neighborhood. If he'd killed someone after the police had a clear opportunity to end the situation, I'm pretty sure we'd be critical of their actions.
But, yes, it was sad.

The one thing they did not give was the timeline.... I can remember some SWAT standoffs lasting many hours here... and the suspect eventually gives up...

Here, the SWAT team escalated the situation with gas and grenade... nobody was in harms way as the others had already left the residence...


I am not saying that at the time they shot him he did not deserve it.... I would just question if they should have waited him out more before escalating.... (if they did wait a long time, then I do not have any problem)....
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Old 09-09-2013, 02:36 PM   #12
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Ok, I am confused. Why does a 107 year old have access to a gun?
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Old 09-09-2013, 04:13 PM   #13
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Ok, I am confused. Why does a 107 year old have access to a gun?
Because he is old enough to vote.
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Old 09-09-2013, 04:45 PM   #14
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These swat teams seem to shoot a lot of people that would have been talked down 30 or 40 years ago. Oh well, I guess they have to use all their dangerous toys to justify the budgets.

Ha
I agree with you - seems like these stories make the news very frequently.

http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/%E2%...ut_of_control/
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Old 09-09-2013, 05:15 PM   #15
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Ok, I am confused. Why does a 107 year old have access to a gun?
Well technically he can, most elder care experts will tell you to ensure he is of sound mind. I've seen many elders at the range enjoying time with family members. Again elders are very good at hiding their failing health.

It's not so much about the tool, brandishing a kitchen knife would put L.E. in the same horrible position.

The Tueller drill was about a guy with a knife attacking a guy with a gun. The guy with the gun looses every time.

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Old 09-09-2013, 05:25 PM   #16
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I never quite get why the cops are so trigger happy, especially, with older people and the mentally ill; could a stun gun or rubber bullets do the trick?
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Old 09-09-2013, 06:18 PM   #17
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Maybe I am an outlier, and it's just only my opinion, but I believe sometimes you get what you deserve and sometimes accountability should begin and end with the initiator of the problem.
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Old 09-09-2013, 06:41 PM   #18
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Maybe I am an outlier, and it's just only my opinion, but I believe sometimes you get what you deserve and sometimes accountability should begin and end with the initiator of the problem.
That assumes the initiator is accountable. How about the case of teenagers whose frontal lobes are still developing, the demented, etc.
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Old 09-09-2013, 07:10 PM   #19
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That assumes the initiator is accountable. How about the case of teenagers whose frontal lobes are still developing, the demented, etc.
Once deadly force is initiated, protocols to protect the public are called for and expected of those who protect and serve.

Seriously if a guy opened fire on you, trying with deadly force to cause you or others harm, would you question their age, mental state, or if they were having a bad day? Remember you have around 50 milliseconds to choose, about you and the publics best interest. If there's a better way, PM me and we can be way more than FI. (I call dibs on sitting next to Buffet)

FYI I'm not nor have I or other family acted as L.E. but I can understand.


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Old 09-09-2013, 07:20 PM   #20
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My point is that there are clearly ways in which thede people can be incapacitated without deadly force. Israel does it all the time. These circumstances are not unusual. Some countries choose not to use deadly force
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