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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 10:08 AM   #21
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

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Originally Posted by astromeria
Puzzling! Are they saying nobody is poor?
Yeah, I agree. I didn't have time to look further when I saw that but will try to later today.
Quote:
* As defined by the Office of Management and Budget and updated for inflation using the Consumer Price Index, the average poverty threshold for a family of four in 2004 was an income of $19,307; for a family of three, $15,067; for a family of two, $12,334; and for unrelated individuals, $9,645.
[/i]
I know some sort of metric needs to be placed on levels of income vs. level of wealth or impoverishment. But, you really need to know the whole story on a person/family to know if they're going to have enough $$$ and cannot just look at income figures. I guess that's why they call these guideline income figures averages, some will justifiably need more to not be impoverished, some a little less.
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 04:15 PM   #22
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

OK, Martha ... want to place a bet on whether unemployment will increase if the minimum wage rises that much?

Markets are free or not free on a continuum ... just because there is no pure, free market from your perspective, doesn't mean embracing more government controls makes sense, or yields the intended results.
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 04:16 PM   #23
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

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Originally Posted by Charles
OK, Martha ... want to place a bet on whether unemployment will increase if the minimum wage rises that much?

Markets are free or not free on a continuum ... just because there is no pure, free market from your perspective, doesn't mean embracing more government controls makes sense, or yields the intended results.
Man, I like this guy. He's a thinker.

JG
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 05:13 PM   #24
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

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Originally Posted by Mr._johngalt
Man, I like this guy. He's a thinker.

JG
But he probably argues that tax cuts raise more money than they hand out.
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 06:00 PM   #25
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
OK, Martha ... want to place a bet on whether unemployment will increase if the minimum wage rises that much?

Markets are free or not free on a continuum ... just because there is no pure, free market from your perspective, doesn't mean embracing more government controls makes sense, or yields the intended results.
Hey, didn't I also say increase unemployment benefits?

In fact, economists dispute amongst themselves the effect of an increase in minimum wage on employment and on low wage workers in the short term.
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 08:34 PM   #26
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

I think the evidence is clear that most businesses will employ fewer workers when their marginal output is less than the marginal cost ... business owners that don't get this fact tend to go bankrupt.

And, increase unemployment benefits? Those come from business taxes, ultimately paid by consumers. Here come the liberals ... let's raise taxes. The Republicans did act like fools with their spending ... the Democrats will be no better. Give us a Democrat in the White House in 2008, plus a Democrat Congress, and we'll have a perfect storm for our retirement.

Retirement ... isn't that the point of this forum? Would it be wise for us to support prudent fiscal policy?
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 08:43 PM   #27
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

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Originally Posted by Charles
I think the evidence is clear that most businesses will employ fewer workers when their marginal output is less than the marginal cost ... business owners that don't get this fact tend to go bankrupt.
Citation, please.

Its been a while since I bothered reading journals catering to economists (ugh), but I seem to recall seeing several articles that suggested that minimum wage hikes didn't significantly increase unemployment. IIRC, the researchers hypothesized that since there weren't a lot of alternatives, employers mostly just sucked it up and paid. But as with everything else, it is nearly impossible to actually prove anything either way with econometrics.
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 08:53 PM   #28
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg18n1c.html I'm sure you won't like Cato, or any other source, but you can spend your own time doing more research, brewer.

Consider this ... if you think an increase in the minimum wage is so good, let's just force it to $100K per year.

Oh ... not many of those folks would be hired? I agree ... then we're just debating the amount at which this foolish policy becomes obviously idiotic, aren't we?

This is a typical Democrat sop for the uneducated. Sounds great, doesn't work. Typical liberal pablum.
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 08:57 PM   #29
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

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Originally Posted by Charles
http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg18n1c.html I'm sure you won't like Cato, or any other source, but you can spend your own time doing more research, brewer.
Pick a real academic source, not a gussied up PAC.
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 08:58 PM   #30
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

Get off your butt and do your own homework.
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 09:28 PM   #31
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

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Originally Posted by Charles
Get off your butt and do your own homework.
http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/bp178

There is a growing view among economists that the minimum wage offers substantial benefits to low-wage workers without negative effect. Although there are still dissenters, the best recent research has shown that the job loss reported in earlier analyses does not, in fact, occur when the minimum wage is increased. There is little question that the overall impact of a minimum wage is positive, as the following facts make clear:. . . .



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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 09:41 PM   #32
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

the temporary losses of the few would be far more than offset by the wage gains of the many

Yeah......but damn I hate it when I'm one of the few suffering losses so the many can benefit.....

That means there is going to need to be some kind of safety net, beyond normal unemployment benefits, Martha.
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 09:45 PM   #33
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Economic Policy Institute or EPI is a progressive United States think tank based in Washington, D.C. and concerned with, as its name implies, the formulation of economic policy. It was established in 1986 by a group of economists including Jeff Faux, Barry Bluestone, Robert Kuttner, Ray Marshall, Robert Reich, and Lester Thurow. Its current president is Lawrence Mishel.

EPI states it was founded "to broaden the discussion about economic policy to include the interests of low- and middle-income workers," It states as its mission, "to provide high-quality research and education in order to promote a prosperous, fair, and sustainable economy." [5] The organization conducts research, makes policy recommendations, and disseminates its work through various channels, including books and studies, briefing papers, a printed journal, email newsletters and RSS feed.[6]

EPI is organized as an IRS Code Section 501(c)(3) non-profit organization and has a staff of about fifty, of whom about ten are Ph.D. researchers. Its board of directors consist largely of labor union officials.
We can cite sources all day long, and attack each on their biases.

But address the example ... it is quite logical a "minimum" wage must create challenges, since it interferes with a vibrant employment market. One can choose to ignore that reality in order to attempt to achieve some goal ... but it will always result in unintended, negative consequences.
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 09:49 PM   #34
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

How many more illegal aliens will be hired to fill in the area below the minimum wage?
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 09:53 PM   #35
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

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Originally Posted by Patrick
How many more illegal aliens will be hired to fill in the area below the minimum wage?
8,102,456

Forecast based on econometrics.
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 10:04 PM   #36
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
8,102,456

Forecast based on econometrics.
Sounds about right . . .
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-11-2006, 10:13 PM   #37
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

Speakling of illegals, is the new Dem Congress going to be able to stop the appropriation for building "the fence?"
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Old 11-11-2006, 10:31 PM   #38
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

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Speakling of illegals, is the new Dem Congress going to be able to stop the appropriation for building "the fence?"
Hopefully. They should redirect it to fund "Spanish as a second language" classes in all the public schools.
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-12-2006, 05:36 AM   #39
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

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Hopefully. They should redirect it to fund "Spanish as a second language" classes in all the public schools.
I vote more fence (double strand razor wire) over a much longer area,
plus more firepower (land mines are an idea). Hey, if the Dems get us out of Iraq, how about redeploying all of those troops to border patrol?
See, this stuff is really not that hard.

JG
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Re: Social Security Again Again???
Old 11-12-2006, 05:54 AM   #40
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Re: Social Security Again Again???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg18n1c.html I'm sure you won't like Cato, or any other source, but you can spend your own time doing more research, brewer.

Consider this ... if you think an increase in the minimum wage is so good, let's just force it to $100K per year.

Oh ... not many of those folks would be hired? I agree ... then we're just debating the amount at which this foolish policy becomes obviously idiotic, aren't we?

This is a typical Democrat sop for the uneducated. Sounds great, doesn't work. Typical liberal pablum.
Charles............you rock! Excellent stuff!

JG
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