Social Security Again Again???

[Craig]

I think the evidence is clear that most businesses will employ fewer workers when their marginal output is less than the marginal cost ... business owners that don't get this fact tend to go bankrupt.

And, increase unemployment benefits? Those come from business taxes, ultimately paid by consumers. Here come the liberals ... let's raise taxes. The Republicans did act like fools with their spending ... the Democrats will be no better. Give us a Democrat in the White House in 2008, plus a Democrat Congress, and we'll have a perfect storm for our retirement.

Retirement ... isn't that the point of this forum? Would it be wise for us to support prudent fiscal policy?

 

[brewer12345]

I think the evidence is clear that most businesses will employ fewer workers when their marginal output is less than the marginal cost ... business owners that don't get this fact tend to go bankrupt.

Citation, please.

Its been a while since I bothered reading journals catering to economists (ugh), but I seem to recall seeing several articles that suggested that minimum wage hikes didn't significantly increase unemployment. IIRC, the researchers hypothesized that since there weren't a lot of alternatives, employers mostly just sucked it up and paid. But as with everything else, it is nearly impossible to actually prove anything either way with econometrics.

 

[Craig]

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg18n1c.html I'm sure you won't like Cato, or any other source, but you can spend your own time doing more research, brewer.

Consider this ... if you think an increase in the minimum wage is so good, let's just force it to $100K per year.

Oh ... not many of those folks would be hired? I agree ... then we're just debating the amount at which this foolish policy becomes obviously idiotic, aren't we?

This is a typical Democrat sop for the uneducated. Sounds great, doesn't work. Typical liberal pablum.

 

[brewer12345]

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg18n1c.html I'm sure you won't like Cato, or any other source, but you can spend your own time doing more research, brewer.

Pick a real academic source, not a gussied up PAC.

 

[Craig]

Get off your butt and do your own homework.

 

[Martha]

Get off your butt and do your own homework.

http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/bp178

There is a growing view among economists that the minimum wage offers substantial benefits to low-wage workers without negative effect. Although there are still dissenters, the best recent research has shown that the job loss reported in earlier analyses does not, in fact, occur when the minimum wage is increased. There is little question that the overall impact of a minimum wage is positive, as the following facts make clear:. . . .

 

[youbet]

the temporary losses of the few would be far more than offset by the wage gains of the many

Yeah......but damn I hate it when I'm one of the few suffering losses so the many can benefit.....

That means there is going to need to be some kind of safety net, beyond normal unemployment benefits, Martha.

 

[Craig]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Economic Policy Institute or EPI is a progressive United States think tank based in Washington, D.C. and concerned with, as its name implies, the formulation of economic policy. It was established in 1986 by a group of economists including Jeff Faux, Barry Bluestone, Robert Kuttner, Ray Marshall, Robert Reich, and Lester Thurow. Its current president is Lawrence Mishel.

EPI states it was founded "to broaden the discussion about economic policy to include the interests of low- and middle-income workers," It states as its mission, "to provide high-quality research and education in order to promote a prosperous, fair, and sustainable economy." [5] The organization conducts research, makes policy recommendations, and disseminates its work through various channels, including books and studies, briefing papers, a printed journal, email newsletters and RSS feed.[6]

EPI is organized as an IRS Code Section 501(c)(3) non-profit organization and has a staff of about fifty, of whom about ten are Ph.D. researchers. Its board of directors consist largely of labor union officials.

We can cite sources all day long, and attack each on their biases.

But address the example ... it is quite logical a "minimum" wage must create challenges, since it interferes with a vibrant employment market. One can choose to ignore that reality in order to attempt to achieve some goal ... but it will always result in unintended, negative consequences.

 

[Patrick]

How many more illegal aliens will be hired to fill in the area below the minimum wage?

 

[youbet]

How many more illegal aliens will be hired to fill in the area below the minimum wage?

8,102,456

Forecast based on econometrics.

 

[Patrick]

8,102,456

Forecast based on econometrics.

Sounds about right . . .

 

[youbet]

Speakling of illegals, is the new Dem Congress going to be able to stop the appropriation for building "the fence?"

 

[Patrick]

Speakling of illegals, is the new Dem Congress going to be able to stop the appropriation for building "the fence?"

Hopefully. They should redirect it to fund "Spanish as a second language" classes in all the public schools.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Hopefully. They should redirect it to fund "Spanish as a second language" classes in all the public schools.

I vote more fence (double strand razor wire) over a much longer area,
plus more firepower (land mines are an idea). Hey, if the Dems get us out of Iraq, how about redeploying all of those troops to border patrol?
See, this stuff is really not that hard.

JG

 

[Mr._johngalt]

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg18n1c.html I'm sure you won't like Cato, or any other source, but you can spend your own time doing more research, brewer.

Consider this ... if you think an increase in the minimum wage is so good, let's just force it to $100K per year.

Oh ... not many of those folks would be hired? I agree ... then we're just debating the amount at which this foolish policy becomes obviously idiotic, aren't we?

This is a typical Democrat sop for the uneducated. Sounds great, doesn't work. Typical liberal pablum.

Charles............you rock! Excellent stuff!

JG

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Hey, this is 3 in a row (this is called "galting" for you newbies).

Re. the EPI (from Wikipedia) and Jeff Faux, Barry Bluestone, Robert Kuttner, Ray Marshall, Robert Reich and Lester Thurow..............looks to me like
they would have invited Marx and Lenin if they were still alive.

JG

 

[Martha]

We can cite sources all day long, and attack each on their biases.

But address the example ... it is quite logical a "minimum" wage must create challenges, since it interferes with a vibrant employment market. One can choose to ignore that reality in order to attempt to achieve some goal ... but it will always result in unintended, negative consequences.

My cousin did one of the minimum wage studies through the University of Minnesota. She is a respected Phd economist that would never cut corners. She and her team concluded a raise in the state minimum wage would have a positive economic effect.

The epi article says:

Over 650 economists, including five Nobel Prize winners and six past presidents of the American Economics Association, recently signed a statement stating that federal and state minimum wage increases “can significantly improve the lives of low-income workers and their families, without the adverse effects that critics have claimed”

I defer to the economists.

 

[Cut-Throat]

See, this stuff is really not that hard.
JG

Yeah, that's what Bush Jr. thought.

 

[greg]

8,102,456

Forecast based on econometrics.

A couple of weeks ago as the population was passing 300,000,000 I heard someone on the radio say that in 2043, given current projections, the population would be 400,000,000. That's a healthy chunk of folks, most working. I think population increases combined with wage increases gives SS a better chance too.

 

[Craig]

You defer to your economists, I'll see your bet with my economists, and raise the bet, with logic.

Martha, I know we won't agree on this, and it has been debated ad nauseam over the years. The catching point is always the specific increase ... your economists will believe the latest rise (whatever it might be) is just right. Enough to help the lower paid, but not enough to cause businesses to toss them overboard. Central planning at its (intended) best. Folks like me believe that businesses don't enslave people, they employ them ... and if they need more employees, and not enough candidates apply, then the pay goes up.

I worked plenty of low paying jobs, starting at $1 per hour in 1970, flipping burgers. I seldom had the luxury of working for companies covered by minimum wage laws, and I was "forced" to put myself through three college degrees in order to advance economically. No one gave it to me. I have plenty of empathy for the lowly paid, I love to leave a big tip for good service, and I like to hire people at just a little above market and give them opportunities to advance their careers and their lives. But ... forcing businesses to pay people better is simply not viable.

 

[Goonie]

I vote more fence (double strand razor wire) over a much longer area,
plus more firepower (land mines are an idea). Hey, if the Dems get us out of Iraq, how about redeploying all of those troops to border patrol?
See, this stuff is really not that hard.

JG

I'm with you JG, come in legally or don't come in at all!!!

Hopefully. They should redirect it to fund "Spanish as a second language" classes in all the public schools.

Do they teach "English as a second language" in Mexico? Bet not! Teach ENGLISH as a first language to all kids, and English as the required language for all immigrants! My ancestors had to learn it that way, or they wouldn't have lasted too long in this country, seeing as there aren't to many in these parts that speak Hungarian and such.

And wouldn't it be discrimination to only teach Spanish "as a second language"? What about Chinese? Or Italian? Or Haitian? Or any other language under the sun!

Of course, that may just be my opinion.

 

[Patrick]

Do they teach "English as a second language" in Mexico? Bet not! Teach ENGLISH as a first language to all kids, and English as the required language for all immigrants! My ancestors had to learn it that way, or they wouldn't have lasted too long in this country, seeing as there aren't to many in these parts that speak Hungarian and such.

And wouldn't it be discrimination to only teach Spanish "as a second language"? What about Chinese? Or Italian? Or Haitian? Or any other language under the sun!

Of course, that may just be my opinion.

I was being facetious. But, since the illegals don't want to learn English, our kids will have to learn Spanish in order to communicate with them.

 

[Goonie]

I was being facetious. But, since the illegals don't want to learn English, our kids will have to learn Spanish in order to communicate with them.

About "I was being facetious"...sorry I didn't catch it....sometimes I'm a bit dense between the ears....esp. before lunch!

Some of the 'illegal's' kids around here already speak English better (and better English) than a lot of the other kids around here....maybe we ought to have them tutor some of our local kids!

From listening to some of our neighborhood kids, and the kids they hire as 'summer help' at work, I wonder if the schools still teach Grammar....sure doesn't seem like it! :

 

[greg]

You defer to your economists, I'll see your bet with my economists, and raise the bet, with logic.

. . . and I was "forced" to put myself through three college degrees in order to advance economically. No one gave it to me. . . .

And as I see things so far, your logic/reasoning has blinders on. I believe the 'three colleges' already existed w/ teachers, etc., when you were ready to go to school. They were provided by mostly benevolent others for your use. In the most real sense, it was mostly given to you by other good folks and/or gov't. But yes, you paid for a small slice of that total package.

So often . . . some folks don't even see their own blinders. Ahhhh, well. Good luck with your vision and resulting logic.

 

[Craig]

I see. So much for getting to know each other better. I owe it all to government. Thank you for setting me straight, Greg.