Solar, Wind Renewable Energy

[morriss003]

Hawaii is headed toward 100% renewables. On Maui we have solar farms, wind farms, commercial solar leasing, and home solar arrays. I put in a 19 panel array in 2011. The total was $28K, but after Federal and state tax credits it cost $11K. We have some of the highest gasoline prices in the USA, so I leased a Nissan Leaf. The array paid for itself in 2017. Now it's gravy. Our bill averages $30 (mainly connection fee) a month versus $350 for the average home.

[meierlde]

Quote:

Originally Posted by morriss003 Hawaii is headed toward 100% renewables. On Maui we have solar farms, wind farms, commercial solar leasing, and home solar arrays. I put in a 19 panel array in 2011. The total was $28K, but after Federal and state tax credits it cost $11K. We have some of the highest gasoline prices in the USA, so I leased a Nissan Leaf. The array paid for itself in 2017. Now it's gravy. Our bill averages $30 (mainly connection fee) a month versus $350 for the average home.

The big reason Hawaii is moving is due to the high electric rates ranging from .28/kwh on Oahu .30 on Maui and .34 on the big Island. Note that the big reason is that the generators run on oil and the price of fuel oil is a big effect.
Renewables are easy to justify at those rates. the same is true of most Island locations world wide that are to far from the mainland to get power cables to.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rianne In my OP, I stated we are paying .048/KW based on wind power. The discussion went haywire. May I submit another link and wait for all the engineers and so forth to dispute it. Let's stop talking about the effects of global warming. Let's just look at our own pocketbooks. I want to save money in a good way. Renewable Electricity Levelized Cost Of Energy Already Cheaper Than Fossil Fuels, And Prices Keep Plunging - Energy Innovation: Policy and Technology

Same as other info that was posted. RE can be cheap, until you have enough of it that you have excess you can't sell. Or need to add storage.

Or with cheap RE coming on line, utilities would not be so (financially) motivated to keep their base load plants (nuke, coal, hydro if you have it) running, will reduce maintenance and won;t replace them near end-of-life.

Then we have brown outs and black outs with that much intermittent RE. Now you need storage, or you need to pay to keep those base load plants on line. Suddenly, it's not so cheap.

Bottom line, these articles touting the low cost of RE only apply if we only install a relatively little of it, so the existing grid can back it up. To take RE to higher levels, the RE incurs the cost of the grid support and/or storage. Suddenly, its not so cheap.

Or as I said in an earlier post "It's a good thing as far as it goes, but it only goes so far."

And I agree with you, the global warming posts could use their own thread. Please.

-ERD50

[zippy2020]

Solar and wind power, along with natural gas energy, is a viable solution for many but not all, areas. California has whittled down its coal plant dependency to less than 1%:

San Diego Union-Tribune, May 2016:
"....First, California’s total megawatt hours attributed to coal has dropped from 1 percent in 2007 to just two-tenths of one percent in 2015.

And second, in an EIA report released last week, California saw a 96 percent decrease in electric power consumption by coal during the same time frame. That’s the steepest fall by percentage of any state.

“As a provider of power into the grid, (coal in California is) dead as a door nail,” said Bill Corcoran, the western regional director for the Sierra Club’s Beyond Coal campaign. "

We had 14 panels installed on our roof in Nov 2015. PG&E charges $10/mo grid connection. We qualified for net zero metering and the Federal solar refund (the state refund was gone, alas) with a 20-yr period for the NZM.

This gives us retail cost credit for all watts we put into the system. It effectively reduces our electricity cost to $11/mo, which is a long sight better than the $125/mo we used to pay.

The latest proposal in storage (badly needed) is the possibility of using Hoover Dam as a giant energy battery. Still just a proposal, would need a long process to do, but it's a fascinating look on how scientists are working on the energy issue in those "out of the box" ways:

The $3 Billion Plan to Turn Hoover Dam Into a Giant Battery
NY Times July 24, 2018
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...av=bottom-well
(excerpt)

" Hoover Dam helped transform the American West, harnessing the force of the Colorado River — along with millions of cubic feet of concrete and tens of millions of pounds of steel — to power millions of homes and businesses. It was one of the great engineering feats of the 20th century.

Now it is the focus of a distinctly 21st-century challenge: turning the dam into a vast reservoir of excess electricity, fed by the solar farms and wind turbines that represent the power sources of the future. "

[Texas Proud]

When I was in Hawaii 10 years ago I was really surprised that the wind farms that I passed were not running...


We went to the most southern part of the US and we passed a number of windmills on the way, but not a single one was moving... there were a few other places that we passed and sometimes there was a couple moving but most were not...


Heck, even when we drive in west Texas not all the turbines are going.... so it looks like it can be real easy for them to throttle back production if needed..

[brucethebroker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rianne Agree and well taken. The financial impact of change has to make sense to all. On a personal note, would I give up my car, A/C, HVAC, electricity to make a drastic change immediately, no. It has to make sense with my checkbook. I made the change with RE, because it was cheaper. It is a city aggregate program moving in the right direction IMHO.

Yep, has to cost the same or less, and be just as dependable. Many agree and vote with their pocketbooks.

I see the same thing locally with recycling at the curb. If the waste co. charges for it, low participation. If it is free (no increase in monthly charges) participation increases.

In other parts of the country, people seem to feel better about spending money on recycling and RE. Not so much in our area.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zippy2020 .... California has whittled down its coal plant dependency to less than 1%: San Diego Union-Tribune, May 2016: "....First, California’s total megawatt hours attributed to coal has dropped from 1 percent in 2007 to just two-tenths of one percent in 2015. And second, in an EIA report released last week, California saw a 96 percent decrease in electric power consumption by coal during the same time frame. That’s the steepest fall by percentage of any state. “As a provider of power into the grid, (coal in California is) dead as a door nail,” said Bill Corcoran, the western regional director for the Sierra Club’s Beyond Coal campaign. " ....

Like much of the "green" reporting, there is some seriously phony math used in that report.

Just like the examples of some country with 100% RE for a day, these areas are not islands. California is connected to a larger grid. So CA eliminated coal plants, but then they import from other grids and...

https://www.wecc.biz/Reliability/201...TI%20Final.pdf
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=30192

Those sources (also from 2015) show that CA has a net import of 26% of its electrical consumption. And that comes from the WECC grid, which gets 26% of its energy from.... wait for it... coal.

26% of 26% is 6.77%. So they understate coal consumptioption in CA by, oh, just a little-bitty 33.8 times! (6.77/.2)

Note Sierra's tricky, misleading wording. “As a provider of power into the grid, (coal in California is) dead as a door nail,”

[satire/] Yeah! They aren't providing coal power to the grid! They just use other people's coal power![/satire] Is that how we measure progress?

And those are net numbers, the links say CA is also exporting occasional excesses, so it is likely that those other grids help CA balance their RE. But what if "everyone did that"? If all the grids have a high % of RE, there is not so much availability to balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zippy2020 ... The latest proposal in storage (badly needed) is the possibility of using Hoover Dam as a giant energy battery. Still just a proposal, would need a long process to do, but it's a fascinating look on how scientists are working on the energy issue in those "out of the box" ways: The $3 Billion Plan to Turn Hoover Dam Into a Giant Battery NY Times July 24, 2018 https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...av=bottom-well (excerpt) " Hoover Dam helped transform the American West, harnessing the force of the Colorado River — along with millions of cubic feet of concrete and tens of millions of pounds of steel — to power millions of homes and businesses. It was one of the great engineering feats of the 20th century. Now it is the focus of a distinctly 21st-century challenge: turning the dam into a vast reservoir of excess electricity, fed by the solar farms and wind turbines that represent the power sources of the future. "

They essentially already do this by reducing output when demand is low. I'm not sure if they can currently reverse it, as they have no need. But that could help if RE hit peaks that completly eliminated the need for power from Hoover Dam at times.

But that's not a US-wide solution, many areas do not have large hydro resources.

A recent plan to build a large hydro 'battery' was canceled due to cost, even though they had a good geographic area for it (not so common US-wide). Look up SMUD Iowa hill project.

-ERD50

[ncbill]

Back on topic, I'm optimistic about battery storage becoming more available.

Even w/o solar panels I'd love to have a cheaper a Powerwall-type battery on the side of my home supplying a sub-panel of critical circuits which would allow me to recycle the half-dozen individual UPS units I currently have.

[Texas Proud]

Was just watching a Verizon commercial about Hawaii electricity.... they were showing the communication part of the system...


But, they said that the company was shooting for 100% renewable from what I think is 2040...



Since there is no neighboring grid to tie into, I wonder what their plan is for backup?

[Rianne]

Georgetown TX, in the red? I don't think so.

https://www.npr.org/2017/03/07/51906...newable-energy

[Music Lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rianne Georgetown TX, in the red? I don't think so. https://www.npr.org/2017/03/07/51906...newable-energy

Once again a "reporter" doesn't bother to ask any real questions or ask for any data.

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rianne Georgetown TX, in the red? I don't think so. https://www.npr.org/2017/03/07/51906...newable-energy

Strange article... but it appears to be a bit wrong... from what I can read the city is buying 100% RE, but not all of Georgetown is 100%....


But as mentioned before, you are connected to a system that had a lot of dirty producers and you do not know where your electrons are coming from... heck, my mom is now 100% wind according to her bill, but I know that it is a little bit of a lie...

[meierlde]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud Strange article... but it appears to be a bit wrong... from what I can read the city is buying 100% RE, but not all of Georgetown is 100%.... But as mentioned before, you are connected to a system that had a lot of dirty producers and you do not know where your electrons are coming from... heck, my mom is now 100% wind according to her bill, but I know that it is a little bit of a lie...

What actually happens is a true up every month, in that the city buys sufficient renewable energy to meet its usage. (perhaps a month delayed but). From the clean choice energy site:https://cleanchoiceenergy.com/
" You simply make the switch, and we make sure all the energy you use is replenished on the grid with 100% clean wind and solar power." So in this case they use a true up mechanism. So it is not a moment by moment but

over some period that all the energy come from renewables.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meierlde What actually happens is a true up every month, in that the city buys sufficient renewable energy to meet its usage. (perhaps a month delayed but). From the clean choice energy site:https://cleanchoiceenergy.com/ " You simply make the switch, and we make sure all the energy you use is replenished on the grid with 100% clean wind and solar power." So in this case they use a true up mechanism. So it is not a moment by moment but over some period that all the energy come from renewables.

Texas Proud and I discussed this a while back - while it sounds good to contract to get your energy 100% from wind, what does that really mean?

Yes, I understand the electrons are not directed to your house like internet packets, it's more of an accounting thing. But what is the result?

They would produce that power and sell it anyway, right? Maybe these contracts help motivate more wind installations? But where does the wind energy provider gain anything? They aren't cutting out the middle-man and selling direct to the homeowner. I just don't see how the math works.


Hmmm, so maybe their mix of their wind energy, plus any they need to buy on the market to cover lulls, costs less than average for the other energy suppliers if those other suppliers are not getting a 'share' of that cheap wind energy (the wind suppliers effectively pulled their energy off the market?)?

Is that a zero-sum game (for a given amount of wind capacity)? The only way for a wind energy supplier to offer it to me cheaper is for the price on the rest of the customers to go up ( a small amount as it is spread across a larger base?)?

Anyone?

-ERD50

[meierlde]

To understand how folks make money, you need to understand how the ERCOT market fir energy works. Add to this the current but declining subsidy for wind. Of course one thing that has helped the last few years is low interest rates, as with solar and wind, the vast majority of the costs are construction costs. In addition ERCOT does not do capacity payments like some other grids do. But if the generator can get long term contracts they can avoid situations where the price goes negative in the real time market by having sold their generation long term. There are 3 levels of market the long term, the day ahead (priced by hour), and the real time (settled at 5 to 15 min intervals). So it gets real complex real fast. (note that for example you saw the real time market peak in the last week with the heat wave, but typically only from 3:30 to 8:30 pm.) Some of the data is on the public ERCOT site. But the simplest thought is that folks are still installing more wind. Then there is the federal subsidy as well. (it is sort of an inverse carbon tax)


I might add that there is a big question in general of how electric generation plants make money with different models in different markets. Further it will be interesting to see what happens when the $24/mwh subsidy for renewables goes away in 2023. (Although a carbon tax would effectively revive it) So in one sense even in the de-vertically integrated markets there are lots of rules and differeing submarkets etc.

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 How can off-grid with batteries be cheaper than grid tie? Batteries are expensive.

In my town exactly one-quarter of the solar-powered homes are grid-tied net-metering. 3/4s of us are off-grid. I had a quote from an installer to install a grid-tied net-metering system on my house [before I decided to go off-grid].

A grid-tied net-metering system is far more expensive to install. The utility company contracts say that each component must have been pre-approved by them before it can be used in your system.

Regular electricians are not allowed to even touch a solar-power system if it is used for grid-tied net-metering. Solar installers make a mint from doing grid-tied net-metering installs. Each of them in my state are dealers, they will only install the components that they sold you.

Also you pay fees for all that stuff, plus to connect to the grid.

Seriously, get some quotes for both types of systems and compare. It is cheaper to buy the batteries than it is to go grid-tied net-metering.

For off-grid systems you can buy each component online, and you can get any local electrician to wire it up.

Quote:

... Anyhow, won't the depreciation come back to you when you sell the property?

Don't confuse improvements to cost-basis with depreciation.

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncbill Back on topic, I'm optimistic about battery storage becoming more available. Even w/o solar panels I'd love to have a cheaper a Powerwall-type battery on the side of my home supplying a sub-panel of critical circuits which would allow me to recycle the half-dozen individual UPS units I currently have.

Unless you lived in a region with time-of-use billing I do not see the benefit of having a powerwall.

[meierlde]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Offgrid Organic Farmer In my town exactly one-quarter of the solar-powered homes are grid-tied net-metering. 3/4s of us are off-grid. I had a quote from an installer to install a grid-tied net-metering system on my house [before I decided to go off-grid]. A grid-tied net-metering system is far more expensive to install. The utility company contracts say that each component must have been pre-approved by them before it can be used in your system. Regular electricians are not allowed to even touch a solar-power system if it is used for grid-tied net-metering. Solar installers make a mint from doing grid-tied net-metering installs. Each of them in my state are dealers, they will only install the components that they sold you. Also you pay fees for all that stuff, plus to connect to the grid. Seriously, get some quotes for both types of systems and compare. It is cheaper to buy the batteries than it is to go grid-tied net-metering. For off-grid systems you can buy each component online, and you can get any local electrician to wire it up. Don't confuse improvements to cost-basis with depreciation.

In addition there is a move to change net metering from paying the retail rates on exported energy to the wholesale rate (i.e. the rate at the substation). This does reduce the economics of a system.



Actually I have read suggestions that currently the cheapest way to provide backup power is with a generator and a critical loads panel. Now if you don't want to run the generator 24/7 you can put in systems like in a boat or rv that allow you to run the generator for some period but not 24/7 during an outage. (Just like you would not want to run the generator in an rv when trying to sleep).

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Offgrid Organic Farmer In my town exactly one-quarter of the solar-powered homes are grid-tied net-metering. 3/4s of us are off-grid. I had a quote from an installer to install a grid-tied net-metering system on my house [before I decided to go off-grid]. A grid-tied net-metering system is far more expensive to install. The utility company contracts say that each component must have been pre-approved by them before it can be used in your system. Regular electricians are not allowed to even touch a solar-power system if it is used for grid-tied net-metering. Solar installers make a mint from doing grid-tied net-metering installs. Each of them in my state are dealers, they will only install the components that they sold you. Also you pay fees for all that stuff, plus to connect to the grid. Seriously, get some quotes for both types of systems and compare. It is cheaper to buy the batteries than it is to go grid-tied net-metering. For off-grid systems you can buy each component online, and you can get any local electrician to wire it up. .... .

Interesting. I can see where everything related to being grid tied would drive prices up, all rules/regs must be followed, permits, licensed contractors will not be discounting equipment so much, and a creative/motivated person could do things a bit more 'on the cheap'. But still, batteries are expensive - how much storage do you have? What is your average monthly KW-hr used?

But that made me think of another approach, not exactly the "hybrid" system I've read about - those are grid tie with battery backup. But what about a home system, dedicated to a few circuits that see a lot of fairly constant use, but don't have intermittent high currents for long. Like a circuit with fridge/freezer, lighting, but not things like well pumps, A/C, heaters, etc. Have a battery bank that is charged by solar panels, with an inverter to drive those chosen circuits. A charger connected to the grid would also charge the batteries, but only to keep them from dropping too low. Things would be sized so that you only occasionally draw from the grid to charge. It would be a balance - spend less on a smaller battery bank and spend a bit more for grid juice, or spend more on a larger battery bank and spend less on grid juice and have some backup for a grid outage.

Since the chargers would be one-way, there would be no way for this equipment to feed the grid, so no grid safety/reg issues. No different in concept from putting a charger on my car battery.

I tried to research this, but only found refs to those 'hybrid" systems, which are still grid tied.

-ERD50

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meierlde In addition there is a move to change net metering from paying the retail rates on exported energy to the wholesale rate (i.e. the rate at the substation). This does reduce the economics of a system.

In our state, you can never get paid for putting power onto the grid. At best you get credited for that power, and when you pull power from the grid it is subtracted from your credits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 Interesting. I can see where everything related to being grid tied would drive prices up, all rules/regs must be followed, permits, licensed contractors will not be discounting equipment so much, and a creative/motivated person could do things a bit more 'on the cheap'. But still, batteries are expensive - how much storage do you have?

I have 4400 watts of photovoltaic panels, my battery-bank is 48vdc with 600ah of capacity. The batteries cost around $2160.

Quote:

... But that made me think of another approach, not exactly the "hybrid" system I've read about - those are grid tie with battery backup. But what about a home system, dedicated to a few circuits that see a lot of fairly constant use, but don't have intermittent high currents for long. Like a circuit with fridge/freezer, lighting, but not things like well pumps, A/C, heaters, etc. Have a battery bank that is charged by solar panels, with an inverter to drive those chosen circuits. A charger connected to the grid would also charge the batteries, but only to keep them from dropping too low. Things would be sized so that you only occasionally draw from the grid to charge. It would be a balance - spend less on a smaller battery bank and spend a bit more for grid juice, or spend more on a larger battery bank and spend less on grid juice and have some backup for a grid outage. Since the chargers would be one-way, there would be no way for this equipment to feed the grid, so no grid safety/reg issues. No different in concept from putting a charger on my car battery. I tried to research this, but only found refs to those 'hybrid" systems, which are still grid tied. -ERD50

We found that on most days by noon our battery bank is fully charged. So power we make from noon to 4pm is surplus.

We can power every appliance and every power tool we own without cost.

During sunlight we have enough power to run everything. The only time that we need to conserve power is during darkness.

My wife and I both use laptops at our desks. A few LED lights and we do not consume much at night.

Our biggest load is our well pump. A night-time shower can put a huge dent in battery charge.

Living on solar-power requires a few lifestyle changes. When the sun first comes up, my wife starts her coffee maker and she can take a shower without affecting the battery.

The batteries are not the most expensive component of the system. Our E-panel [charge-controller, inverter, and breakers all pre-wired and tested at the factory] is the expensive component.