Stores closing at record pace

[audreyh1]

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Originally Posted by mamadogmamacat So the point is there is still (for now) a big box store connection, not just a FedEx or UPS guy who dumps and scoots. That is really what my question was. I actually did some online research before calling local Sears store (did not go to the store itself) to order and have delivered and installed that washer 7 yrs ago. So, other than store used, I did the same thing you have all described.

Right - to me the examples given aren't quite the same as ordering an appliance online, because they went through a local brick and mortar store with delivery and installation services. And if the unit had been in stock locally, the ordering part of the process would have been unnecessary - just like most retail brick and mortar stores operate.

I do have a large appliance story: When I ordered a fancy wine cellar online out of NY I think - that particular unit actually had to be shipped from France - it came with a "white glove" delivery service. I have no idea how far they drove to deliver the unit - it must have been drop-shipped to somewhere in TX, but they uncrated it, installed it, made sure it was working, took all the shipping materials back with them. Amazing!

[MichaelB]

This is nothing new. Creative destruction in the retail sector has always been around, and I think the real culprit is as much Walmart as it is Amazon. Thousands of stores have been closed over the past couple of decades. The real story is why it has taken so long. Sears and Kmart have been on life support for years, dragging out their inevitable outcome and losing even more money in the process. Too much easy money for business.

[REWahoo]

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Originally Posted by MichaelB ...I think the real culprit is as much Walmart as it is Amazon.

The real culprit is you, me and everyone else who decided to purchase goods and services from sources other than the old brick and mortar retailers. Pogo had it right...

[CaptTom]

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Originally Posted by explanade Also found that Amazon pricing for household goods like toothpaste or detergeant isn't that great. If the price is low, it's either a subscription only or add on item. If you're wanting one bottle of shampoo. You can often find it cheaper at Target. Only if you buy like 4 or more bottles, the per-bottle price may be a little bit better.

I think this is as it should be. If you want one bottle of shampoo, you should either (1) pay the real cost of shipping that one item, or (2) toss it in with a larger order. Shipping multiple items in one box is always going to be cheaper than shipping multiple smaller boxes.

This is Amazon's way of keeping shipping "free", without penalizing the person whose order actually costs less to ship.

It's no different from a B&M store offering quantity discounts, or a lower price for a larger package. Note that B&M stores don't (usually) charge you a fee for shipping, receiving, storing and stocking the products on the shelves. That cost is very real, but it's embedded in the price. Just like Amazon's shipping costs.

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Originally Posted by Amethyst Once we are all good and hooked on online shopping and the B&M stores are gone, watch "free shipping" disappear. Shipping will go through the roof and next thing you know, B&M stores will be back because it's cheaper to go to the store!

I'm not so sure. Amazon was very disruptive to the shipping industry. Remember "Add $19.99 for delivery" and "Allow 6-8 weeks for delivery"?

Remember when catalog and (later) on-line merchants always tacked on the "retail" shipping costs, while they actually paid far less to UPS and FedEx?

I don't think consumers would go back to those days.

Then again, never underestimate the stupidity of American consumers. I also remember when cable TV advertised $10 a month for all local channels, PLUS cable-only commercial-free channels. That sure has changed.

[RunningBum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamadogmamacat So the point is there is still (for now) a big box store connection, not just a FedEx or UPS guy who dumps and scoots. That is really what my question was. I actually did some online research before calling local Sears store (did not go to the store itself) to order and have delivered and installed that washer 7 yrs ago. So, other than store used, I did the same thing you have all described.

The FedEx or UPS guy who delivers your small Amazon box is not going to deliver a large appliance. A freight shipper will do so. Presumably they will bring it in and connect it, probably for an extra fee, or it's built in to the online price. It's definitely something I'd make sure of before ordering, but no online appliance dealer will ever make it by having shipments dropped at your porch with no other option.

[ceciledian]

Part of this is rightsizing. If you read this Bloomberg article and others on the topic, analysts and CEOs admit they overbuilt and added too many stores to malls. Near where I live there is large outdoor mall with multiple good sit down restaurants, it's about 10 years old and doing well. Since then two neighboring towns built smaller outdoor malls all within a 15 mile radius of one another and they are struggling, can't even keep restaurants open let alone stores.

[audreyh1]

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Originally Posted by explanade I've resisted getting groceries online. Don't like the Amazon Pantry setup. And can they be trusted to do a good job of picking produce? Also found that Amazon pricing for household goods like toothpaste or detergeant isn't that great. If the price is low, it's either a subscription only or add on item. If you're wanting one bottle of shampoo. You can often find it cheaper at Target. Only if you buy like 4 or more bottles, the per-bottle price may be a little bit better.

I buy household goods on Amazon if it's a good deal. The multiple items prices are often great, and if it's something I use all the time, it makes sense, even if I only order once a year. Add-ons are fine too, as I usually have other orders.

I buy quite a bit of food from Amazon. These are non-perishable items. Again - if the prices make sense. And they often do, or I wait for a good deal.

Of course I buy a lot from local supermarkets and Costco.

[Moemg]

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Originally Posted by brucethebroker Best to find a brand you like that you know fits and buy those items from a store with free returns online.

That is how I buy clothes on line . I have been wearing JJill clothes for years . I know my size and what styles I like . I swim a lot so I buy my bathing suits from Lands end . I like Born shoes so I just search for a good sale .

[Music Lover]

It's a tough retail market out there and recently some businesses have decided to make it even harder for themselves by making political statements that insult half of their customers.

[scrabbler1]

I live near a major shopping mall and lots of big box stores so it is pretty easy to go over there during off-peak hours (I am ERed, you know) and get what I need in person. The only things I buy on line are those I can't find locally or can buy for a much lower price on line (such as my diabetes blood testing equipment). Often, I will buy something on line but go to the local store to pick it up at my leisure. Those stores such as Walmart have separate, less crowded pick-up areas for times bought this way so I can avoid the crowds (not in the parking lots, though).


Back in my working days, when I had less time to run to stores during busy hours, I would buy more on line or through the mail, but only for things I felt I did not need to see and inspect in person before buying them.

[imoldernu]

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Originally Posted by meierlde Another topic, actually what is happening to brick and mortar stores in larger cities happend to general stores 100 years ago in rural areas. Sears and Wards had big catalogs where you could order anything up to a pre-cut house. They used railway express for delivery, so you might have had to go to the local depot to pick up stuff. This left the local general store to deal with things Sears/Wards did not sell. Sears used to have a large mail order center in Chicago with multiple railroad sidings. Interestingly as Sears grew it decided it needed to take on the big cities and built stores, and the Catalog side faded away. (1993 for the big book). Then starting in the late 60s Sears began to fade away as it was a set of geographic feofdomes. I recall moving from Ca to Tx in 1976 and having to get a new sears card because the two divisions did not like one another. Of course delivery today is better than 100 years ago when west of the mississippi meant an extra week of shipping time.

Good summation...
After a full career in retailing with Sears and Montgomery Ward, beginning in 1958, I watched the change from free standing stores, to malls, and then the movement into smaller communities with catalog stores, (between the two retail giants, some 4,500 units) to service the non-urban market.

So, the rise and fall of giants mirrors what has and is happening in the retail trade. In our 50,000 regiopolis, the single larger mall is anchored by
J C Penney and Sears, with Penneys' to close shortly, and Sears, to likely be close behind. Some 30+ stores have already closed, with the writing on the wall for more closures (2 in the past month).

With a strong effort by the mall owners, there have been many attempts to develop local entrepreneur based businesses... most of which haven't worked out. Traffic has dropped, so obviously sales have not been enough to support the basic costs of operation.

Based on some of the comments about lack of personal service being a cause of customer discontent, I'd point out that in order to stay in business retailers have very few ways of cutting costs except for payroll. A self defeating conundrum.

For the non-major metro malls, my guess is that the timeline for closing will be based on the expiration of longer term leases... a bet that the overhaul of Sears by Eddie Lampert lost, and a major cause of the KMart/Sears plan failure.

The hope for saving the malls seems to lie in trying to convert from retail only, to a combination of public oriented centers (health, entertainment, education etc.) and business offices of all types. IMHO, a gain of perhaps 10 years in operation.

For those who are interested in the retail industry in the US, I'd highly recommend this article. Some numbers that might surprise you.

https://www.thebalance.com/us-retail...erview-2892699

[Midpack]

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Originally Posted by MichaelB This is nothing new. Creative destruction in the retail sector has always been around, and I think the real culprit is as much Walmart as it is Amazon. Thousands of stores have been closed over the past couple of decades. The real story is why it has taken so long. Sears and Kmart have been on life support for years, dragging out their inevitable outcome and losing even more money in the process. Too much easy money for business.

It's not new, but it seems to be accelerating. And you know why. Our generation and older will be the last to stop supporting brick-n-mortar. When we start to go poof, the transition will accelerate, with brick-n-mortar retail along with many other conventions (non-autonomous cars, hard copy books, libraries, "exclusive" clubs, landlines, daily snail mail, keys, incandescent bulbs, paper checks, etc.).

[Amethyst]

Of all these things, few of which I will miss (never belonged to any exclusive club), I predict stores will come back in some form. People will always enjoy wandering around, admiring things to buy. Maybe it will be virtual reality shopping, though.

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Originally Posted by Midpack It's not new, but it seems to be accelerating. And you know why. Our generation and older will be the last to stop supporting brick-n-mortar. When we start to go poof, the transition will accelerate, with brick-n-mortar retail along with many other conventions (non-autonomous cars, hard copy books, libraries, "exclusive" clubs, landlines, daily snail mail, keys, incandescent bulbs, paper checks, etc.).

[jazz4cash]

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Originally Posted by cooch96 I'm optimistic about the future.

Yeah, you are! We have lots of dying malls around here and other tired commercial districts that need refurbishing even with a good local economy. Usually they cut down more trees and build something brand new on the other side of the road which is a nail in the coffin of the struggling businesses.

[Walt34]

The first things I bought online was radio control model airplane stuff, and that from a mail-order place that I'd been dealing with since 1983. There were hobby shops locally but they were somewhat of a pain to get to and rarely had everything I needed/wanted. The best stocked one was a bit over an hour away so I had to wait until I had a day off work to make the trip.

That started me on buying my stuff mail-order and later on with the same companies as they went online. Product selection was of course much greater than any brick store could be. And the shipping was usually four or five days so unless something was time critical I'd just order and wait for it. Normally a bit cheaper too.

When Amazon went online DW and I were both in school and we quickly found that textbooks from Amazon were often more than half off the bookstore prices so that was a no-brainer choice.

Most of what we buy now is replacements for something that broke/wore out so we just don't spend that much on "stuff". The exception being for DW buying gifts for grandnieces and grandnephews. And for that she mostly goes to B&M stores but I rarely do that.

[harley]

I don't think Amazon (or any other online source) will replace Lowes/HD/other hardware stores. Sometimes you need to twist a nut onto a bolt to figure out the size, and when working on a project I sometimes make 4 or 5 trips to the store over a couple of days. Some things are just too hands on for online.

I read somewhere that one of the clothing chains was considering changing their B&M stores to be "try on" centers, where you go in and try the clothes on, but do the ordering online (either in the store or at home). The stores wouldn't need to maintain an inventory other than one (or more) of everything in each size. I'm not sure if that would work, but it shows that there's a lot of creative thought going on in trying to deal with the conversion to online shopping.

[mountainsoft]

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Originally Posted by imoldernu The hope for saving the malls seems to lie in trying to convert from retail only

25 years ago it was fun to go to the mall. There were bookstores, music stores, video stores, arcades, kitchen supplies, household items, electronics stores, restaurants, and more. Those are all gone.

When I go to the mall now it is overrun with teenagers, and there's basically nothing left except teeny-bopper clothing stores, and the nice restaurants have been replaced with noisy fast-food "food courts". The only reason I go to the mall anymore is to have tires put on, or buy hand tools at Sears.

Our mall has tried to diversify a little with a fancy theater, a gym, and even a church. But it's a different atmosphere and clientele. I always laugh when I walk by the lounge areas where everyone has their nose buried in their smart phones and no one is talking to anyone else. I just feel old when I'm there.

[samclem]

I hope they convert at least some of these stores to "maker spaces." That would bring me back to the mall. Big 3D printers, CNC flatbed precision cutting of metals and other materials, access to folks who know how to make ideas come to life using newly available and affordable technology, etc. This is one place where the virtual world (large communities of hobbyists interested in microprocessors and in modern fabrication techniques) can support a B&M presence as people turn ideas into real things.

Nope, they won't earn as much as an old Sears store. But they'll earn more than a present Sears store.

[CaliforniaMan]

I am old enough to remember when the first malls appeared here in coastal North San Diego County, and completely destroyed and gutted the coastal city downtown areas. Now the malls are dying, and the downtowns are enjoying a resurgence. The downtown areas were always much more colorful and interesting than those boring self similar mall stores. Hurray, I think it is a great change, bulldoze all those old malls to the ground and plant some trees, I will shed no tears.

[Amethyst]

I feel young at the mall, what with all the turtle-headed mall-walkers. What will old people do for free exercise, once the malls are gone?

Then again, we hardly ever go there any more. We used to enjoy the mall too, 30 years ago. Then all the specialty stores closed, the good clothing stores went out of business, and the mall was taken over by athletic shoe stores, jewelry stores, and an immense Victoria's Secret. Such an odd mix.

Oh, and those mid-corridor kiosks with the aggressive salespeople calling you over...that really spoiled mall-strolling, for me.

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Originally Posted by mountainsoft 25 years ago it was fun to go to the mall. There were bookstores, music stores, video stores, arcades, kitchen supplies, household items, electronics stores, restaurants, and more. Those are all gone. When I go to the mall now it is overrun with teenagers, and there's basically nothing left except teeny-bopper clothing stores, and the nice restaurants have been replaced with noisy fast-food "food courts". The only reason I go to the mall anymore is to have tires put on, or buy hand tools at Sears. Our mall has tried to diversify a little with a fancy theater, a gym, and even a church. But it's a different atmosphere and clientele. I always laugh when I walk by the lounge areas where everyone has their nose buried in their smart phones and no one is talking to anyone else. I just feel old when I'm there.