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Old 04-07-2008, 02:16 PM   #41
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#3 you understand that it is your home also and that living in a clean environment is nice and that sometimes doing the cleaning up yourself and not expecting the women in your life to do it is well priceless.

#4 The women you marry is NOT YOUR MOTHER.
I'll make a deal with you on numbers #3 and #4. When women start pulling their share in the workforce then men will start pulling their share at home. The man you marry is NOT YOUR FATHER, do not expect him to financially support you. You understand that it takes money to run a household and money doesn't grow on trees. For most people, this means hard work in boring and stressful jobs. Men face the brunt of this labor, which is one reason 93% of workplace fatalities are men. Since men spend 13 hours a week more than women in the workforce, it is perfectly reasonable to expect women to spend more time cleaning up the house.
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Old 04-07-2008, 02:28 PM   #42
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I would never bash the men of today . I think they do a great job . I see my SO's sons and my son in law and they all really help with the chores and the child care . Years ago it was this is a woman's job and this is a man's job and then they told us women we had to have careers or we were not fulfilled . So we tried to do it all household chores,child care ,work and be sexy . Well we were exhausted and some of the men were still sticking with the I do the outside work and watch football attitude and women rebeled ( mostly by divorce ) and the guys wised up and realized maybe they had to help with some non traditional guy chores(diapering ,cooking , dishes , vacuuming noticeI did not say toilet cleaning because everybody knows that is strictly a women's job ) and after the guys started helping out everybody lived happily ever after and only divorced for money or infidelity or they were not fulfilled in the marriage .
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Old 04-07-2008, 02:44 PM   #43
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There are also men out there who think, that because their income level it is substantial, that that is all they need to provide. "I'll make the $$$, you stay home & take care of life at home, spend my money - that I earned, and we will live happily ever after" WHAT!!! I think not!

There are women out there looking for this type of pansy - the one I described does not rate me in their life. (I really do not care if he does or does not do the dishes!)

As for the women filing for divorce...well, many men would never get around to it - despite all the moaning and groaning, etc. about how bad their wife is, how the affair will be ending soon, it was a one time thing, booze more important than the family, etc. Point made - man is so miserable and wants out, but does nothing.

Women file just to get the damn thing going.
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Old 04-07-2008, 02:48 PM   #44
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I've never been married and do not have children so it's not a question of being bitter, at least with respect to marriage. However, I have seen the impact of broken families on others and on society.
Fair enough. I agree with you that there is an impact on families and society. After a fair amount of reflection, it seems to me that right now marriage is not really a good deal for men or women, and I think this is unfortunate and ought to change. I also wonder if, because 70% of women initiate divorce, the divorce laws are more favorable towards them. This may not be a valid syllogism.

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But I am bitter about gender double standards and about how men are perceived. Many men feel this way, although most do not voice their concerns out of fear of being labeled with various derogatory names. This is one reason why women often take leading roles in the fathers movement and why half of authors on mens issues are women. Fortunately, this is beginning to change and more and more men (and women who love men) are speaking out.
I'm not bitter about them because I can't change them (at least not by myself). But I agree with you for the most part.

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You are correct. As most people know, about 50% of marriages end in divorce. What most people don't know is that 70% of divorces are initiated by women. What even fewer people know is that the primary reasons women give for initiating divorce are not substantial causes such as adultery, abuse, or desertion, but "fluff" reasons such as "we grew apart" or "we fell out of love" (for example, you can check out research by Sanford Braver and others).
Such was the case in my marriage and divorce. In my state (Idaho) there are seven reasons to divorce, and the plaintiff must indicate one. The first six are among the serious kind you mention -- adultery, abuse, alcoholism, becoming a felon, etc. The last is "irreconcilable differences". I have been curious what the ratio of the first six to the last one is in filings. I would bet it is something like 90%.

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But it doesn't matter what the research says because men will be blamed. If a man initiates divorce, the man will be blamed. If the woman initiates divorce, the man will be blamed. Or in case of household chores (the topic of this thread), if men spend 13 hours a week more than women on the job and women spend 10 hours a week more than men on housework, men will be criticized for not doing their share.
I mowed the lawn, did the taxes, took care of the cars, took care of the bills and accounts, vacuumed, dusted, painted, did laundry, did dishes, helped cook and clean up, changed diapers, burped kids, fed kids, helped with the kids in a million other ways, as well as either go to school and work part time or work full time out of the home during my entire marriage. I bought my wife presents on her birthday, Valentine's Day, our anniversary, and Christmas. I never committed adultery, bounced a check, became an alcoholic, committed a felony, lost my job, hit or yelled at my wife or my children.

Yet still I am divorced. And quite frankly, I don't really care who she blames and who I blame for our divorce, because we are divorced regardless of blame. I would rather see the institution of marriage strengthened in a way that it is more attractive to both men and women to stay rather than leave. If this can be done in such a way that the truly awful marriages that should be broken up can still be exited, all the better.

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Old 04-07-2008, 07:21 PM   #45
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Yet still I am divorced. And quite frankly, I don't really care who she blames and who I blame for our divorce, because we are divorced regardless of blame. I would rather see the institution of marriage strengthened in a way that it is more attractive to both men and women to stay rather than leave. If this can be done in such a way that the truly awful marriages that should be broken up can still be exited, all the better.
2Cor521
Anyone who believes that men only get divorced because they deserved it is either a very bad observer of life or has an agenda.

There are a good number of men on this board who are married but have no children. For some of them this was the breaks of the game but apparently many others are married and never had any intention of having children.

This one leaves me shaking my head.

Without the goal of children, how could it be worth it to take on another person who gains so much power over your life?

Hello wedding, good-bye autonomy. At least for the high earning or high net-worth man for whom it quickly becomes an expensive proposition to leave.

I realize that on this board there are more than a few marriages in which this set-up is reversed, so I guess this can cut both ways.

Ha
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Old 04-07-2008, 07:53 PM   #46
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I'll make a deal with you on numbers #3 and #4. When women start pulling their share in the workforce then men will start pulling their share at home. The man you marry is NOT YOUR FATHER, do not expect him to financially support you. You understand that it takes money to run a household and money doesn't grow on trees. For most people, this means hard work in boring and stressful jobs. Men face the brunt of this labor, which is one reason 93% of workplace fatalities are men. Since men spend 13 hours a week more than women in the workforce, it is perfectly reasonable to expect women to spend more time cleaning up the house.
Shawn, My wife worked 20+ years in an ICU as a RN, 12 hour shifts that ended up14 hours some days only to come home and have to do it again in 7 hours.

She worked as hard or harder than I did while I was teaching, coaching and painting houses.

We worked together raising the 2 children during those years. Toilets need cleaning I did it, clothes needed to be washed, I did it, the carpet vacuumed I did it. But guess what if my wife thought that it all needed to be done, she did it. Cooking meals we both did it. If someone was tired the other chipped in.

That is how it is supposed to work. Marriage, marry the right gal if you are a guy and treat her like she should be treated as an equal and as your wonderful lover!

Too many Boys are not thinking. That is just what I said there are too many boys out there. They need to become men and grow up.
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Old 04-07-2008, 08:07 PM   #47
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Shawn, My wife worked 20+ years in an ICU as a RN, 12 hour shifts that ended up14 hours some days only to come home and have to do it again in 7 hours.

She worked as hard or harder than I did while I was teaching, coaching and painting houses.

We worked together raising the 2 children during those years. Toilets need cleaning I did it, clothes needed to be washed, I did it, the carpet vacuumed I did it. But guess what if my wife thought that it all needed to be done, she did it. Cooking meals we both did it. If someone was tired the other chipped in.

That is how it is supposed to work. Marriage, marry the right gal if you are a guy and treat her like she should be treated as an equal and as your wonderful lover!

Too many Boys are not thinking. That is just what I said there are too many boys out there. They need to become men and grow up.
The times they are a'changing. Every so often, you have to renegotiate.
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Old 04-07-2008, 08:08 PM   #48
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Great post New guy !
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Old 04-07-2008, 08:09 PM   #49
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There are a good number of men on this board who are married but have no children. For some of them this was the breaks of the game but apparently many others are married and never had any intention of having children.

This one leaves me shaking my head.

Without the goal of children, how could it be worth it to take on another person who gains so much power over your life?

Hello wedding, good-bye autonomy. At least for the high earning or high net-worth man for whom it quickly becomes an expensive proposition to leave.

Ha
I can speak only from my own experience. I have been married three times. Marriage one resulted in two children and a lousy marriage.

Marriage two began with no intention nor means to have kids. It ended in the death of my DW.

Marriage three began at age 52 for both of us...obviously no kids were wanted in this relationship...we each had ones from previous relationships.

So, why marry not once but two more times with no intention of children? For the most basic reason in the world. To share two lives as one for as long as we live. Sure it may sound corny but don't knock if if you haven't tried it. Living alone may suit some but not everyone. I don't fell like I have lost anything...on the contrary, I have gained a partner in life and a person who loves me and wants to be a part of my life. It just doesn't get much better than that.
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Old 04-07-2008, 08:12 PM   #50
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Anyone who believes that men only get divorced because they deserved it is either a very bad observer of life or has an agenda.

There are a good number of men on this board who are married but have no children. For some of them this was the breaks of the game but apparently many others are married and never had any intention of having children.

This one leaves me shaking my head.

Without the goal of children, how could it be worth it to take on another person who gains so much power over your life?

Hello wedding, good-bye autonomy. At least for the high earning or high net-worth man for whom it quickly becomes an expensive proposition to leave.

I realize that on this board there are more than a few marriages in which this set-up is reversed, so I guess this can cut both ways.

Ha
haha,

Sorry, I miss the connection between my post and yours above.

But I will say that I married at age 21 when I was young and naive, and my new bride was the daughter of a pastor who had been faithfully married to his wife for decades. I simplistically figured that whatever came we could work through it, and if there was anyone I could trust to not give up on me, it would be her. We said the whole "for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health" bit in our vows, presided over by her father in a church with 400 people watching. And later that afternoon we signed a piece of paper and paid $28 to the State of Idaho to make it official official.

We didn't specifically have the goal of children when we married, but we ended up getting pregnant five times and having three children born. The delta of 2 there might have contributed to her unhappiness and thus a push towards leaving as per the study I cited previously. Again, regardless of blame, because in both cases there was nothing either of us could have done to prevent the outcome.

Now, at the cynical, ripe, and wealthier old age of nearly 39, I can understand your comments on leaving being an expensive proposition. I'm not looking now, and I have no plans for the near future, but still, any future Mrs. 2Cor521 will have some nearly impossibly high hurdles to overcome. I am a risk-averse individual. Can anyone give me a 100% test to make sure that any future candidate won't leave? I thought not...

2Cor521
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Old 04-07-2008, 08:32 PM   #51
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Old 04-07-2008, 10:08 PM   #52
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Shawn, My wife worked 20+ years in an ICU as a RN, 12 hour shifts that ended up14 hours some days only to come home and have to do it again in 7 hours.

She worked as hard or harder than I did while I was teaching, coaching and painting houses.

We worked together raising the 2 children during those years. Toilets need cleaning I did it, clothes needed to be washed, I did it, the carpet vacuumed I did it. But guess what if my wife thought that it all needed to be done, she did it. Cooking meals we both did it. If someone was tired the other chipped in.

That is how it is supposed to work. Marriage, marry the right gal if you are a guy and treat her like she should be treated as an equal and as your wonderful lover!

Too many Boys are not thinking. That is just what I said there are too many boys out there. They need to become men and grow up.
If your wife was a man, newspaper articles would be calling her lazy for not doing more around the house. That was the take of the article that started this thread. However, men are not lazy. They make great sacrifices at work and at home for their families. Male-bashing will be taken to task.

You have a very idealistic view of how marriage is supposed to work. While this is admirable, it's not reality. This is obvious considering 50% of marriages end in divorce. "Until death do us part" has no meaning.

My mother divorced my father, who is probably the most honorable man on the planet. Her reason was that "she wanted something more." Well, she got it. After 4 failed marriages, she is now all alone. My mother calls the divorce the biggest mistake of her life. She wanted to get back with my father 3-4 years after the split, but it was too late. He had found someone else, a widow. They've now been married for 35+ years. Cosmic justice in action.

I do not understand your comments about boys. What I'm hearing you say is that someone who does not wish to get married is not grown up (and someone who dresses differently than you is not grown up). Want2retire frequently mentions that she has no plans to marry Frank. Is she not grown up, or do you apply this rule only to men?

If my interpretation of your comments is correct, you are not alone. When men say that they do not wish to get married, it is attributed to immaturity. When women say that they do not wish to get married, it is attributed to wisdom and independence. It doesn't matter that there are no data to support these beliefs, because men are always bad and women are always good. Political correctness gone amok. But political correctness has consequences.

More and more young men (and older men) are coming to the conclusion that there is little advantage to marriage, especially considering the high risks. They see no point in working their butts off, being criticized for the sacrifices that they make, and then losing it all in a divorce. This is a very mature and logical decision. And it's not confined to the United States. It's a phenomena throughout the west.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:16 PM   #53
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Just to keep the record straight, the MNBC article states:
"Overall, times are a' changing in the American home. In 1976, women busied themselves with 26 weekly hours of sweeping-and-dusting work, compared with 17 hours in 2005. Men are pitching in more, more than doubling their housework hours from six in 1976 to 13 in 2005."

I don't believe this is male bashing. It is an unsupported title. The study as presented in the article does not discuss slobby men at all, it only discusses the added housework for married women vs single women and married me vs single men.

In fact the article states:
"Stafford analyzed time-diaries and questionnaires from a nationally representative sample of men and women over a 10-year period between 1996 and 2005. The federally-funded study showed that, compared with the single life, marriage meant more housework for both men and women. "

The article also states that single men do more housework than married men.

"Single women in their 20s and 30s did the least housework, about 12 weekly hours, while married women in their 60s and 70s did the most about 21 hours a week. "

"Single guys worked the hardest around the house, trumping all age groups of married men. "

Not a single data point on "slobby men" just the facts of the study. The author should be flogged.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:36 PM   #54
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Maybe these single people who are doing less housework-hours are working smarter instead of harder? Do married women purposefully work harder and put in more housework-hours as a reason to argue with husbands who otherwise don't put in any effort to communicate? Will Kate make the switch from the Swifter to the old broom and dustpan just to get a rise out of Matt? Find out this week on As The Vacuum Whirs.
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Old 04-08-2008, 09:29 AM   #55
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More and more young men (and older men) are coming to the conclusion that there is little advantage to marriage, especially considering the high risks. They see no point in working their butts off, being criticized for the sacrifices that they make, and then losing it all in a divorce. This is a very mature and logical decision. And it's not confined to the United States. It's a phenomena throughout the west.
I'll acknowledge that I had to think long and hard before getting married again and those issues did occur to me. DW and I were dating three years before the thought even came to mind, and I took another year to think it over.

But I believe there is value in the commitment, and it's a struggle to find the words to explain that. From a purely financial/logical standpoint, sure, the marriage is costing me money. But once the basics are met - roof over our heads, not a concern in the world about paying for next year's groceries, etc., I just don't care much about the money. Her company is worth it. To me. YMMV.
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Old 04-08-2008, 10:52 AM   #56
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Even if you don't get married there are risks . If you live together ,you might not get the 401 but you'll probably get the couch and even if you don't live together long term relationships hurt emotionally when they end so the only way to be safe is to wall yourself off from the world and that's pretty lonely .
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Old 04-08-2008, 11:29 AM   #57
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Even if you don't get married there are risks . If you live together ,you might not get the 401 but you'll probably get the couch and even if you don't live together long term relationships hurt emotionally when they end so the only way to be safe is to wall yourself off from the world and that's pretty lonely .
This is certainly true Moe, but truth is in degree. My stuff is of zero concern to me, the money necessary to go on living decently is. At this stage in my life I really don't want to be anyone's retirement plan. Also I have discovered that my morning desire to get up, eat and get out for some exploring is best met by being home alone in the morning.

But hazards can exist even with regard to to keeping your retirement plan or necessary capital. This state has hatched an abomination called "meretricious relationship." This is designed to present our old friends the family lawyers with some compensation for business that was being lost because of fewer and later marriages. You may think you didn't get married, but, you swine, you have been meretriciously cohabiting.

How did I find out about this creative little law? Reading a free magazine named "Seattle Woman". How do most guys find out about it? A summons from their former GF's lawyer, asserting that his client has been meretriciously cohabiting with the unhappily surprised man

DivorceNet - Washington Cohabitation FAQ's

Ha
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Old 04-08-2008, 11:54 AM   #58
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Ha, it seems to me that a lot of these problems would be solved if marriage was considered to be a religious, not a legal/political arrangement.

I have the greatest respect for those who (unlike me) can keep a marriage going happily for a lifetime.

For the rest of us, breakups are heartbreaking. What is even worse is what two relatively decent people will say to one another and do to one another in a divorce.

If marriage wasn't governed by law, divorce would not be, either, and these unfair divorce (and meritricious cohabitation) settlements would disappear. I am assuming that if there are no divorce settlements, there would also be no meritricious cohabitation settlements by analogy. Divorce lawyers would flock towards welfare, and people would think twice before mingling their money or becoming totally dependent on the other for support. How many people would quit their jobs and go marry and sponge off a sugar daddy, if they realized that the sugar daddy could kick them out into the cold dark night at any moment? Maybe not so many. Marriages would become more meaningful if marriage wasn't governed by law, because people would marry for purely non-monetary reasons.
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Old 04-08-2008, 01:40 PM   #59
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Ha, it seems to me that a lot of these problems would be solved if marriage was considered to be a religious, not a legal/political arrangement.

I have the greatest respect for those who (unlike me) can keep a marriage going happily for a lifetime.

For the rest of us, breakups are heartbreaking. What is even worse is what two relatively decent people will say to one another and do to one another in a divorce.

If marriage wasn't governed by law, divorce would not be, either, and these unfair divorce (and meritricious cohabitation) settlements would disappear. I am assuming that if there are no divorce settlements, there would also be no meritricious cohabitation settlements by analogy. Divorce lawyers would flock towards welfare, and people would think twice before mingling their money or becoming totally dependent on the other for support. How many people would quit their jobs and go marry and sponge off a sugar daddy, if they realized that the sugar daddy could kick them out into the cold dark night at any moment? Maybe not so many. Marriages would become more meaningful if marriage wasn't governed by law, because people would marry for purely non-monetary reasons.
+ infinity

Unfortunately, being in the military I've seen people marry at 18, 19, 20, and get divorced months later. Some of the best and worse advice I was given was don't even think about marriage, at least for a guy, until you have a lot of life's lessons behind you. I think it's great advice in that you should be a mature, responsible person for yourself before you even think about adding another person into your life, and also horrible because I'm a horrible romantic and believe it's still possible to marry the highschool or college sweetheart and live happily ever after.

Guess Jimmy Buffett was right, sometimes all you can hope for is to live happily ever after, every now and then.
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Old 04-08-2008, 01:45 PM   #60
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But hazards can exist even with regard to to keeping your retirement plan or necessary capital. This state has hatched an abomination called "meretricious relationship." This is designed to present our old friends the family lawyers with some compensation for business that was being lost because of fewer and later marriages. You may think you didn't get married, but, you swine, you have been meretriciously cohabiting.



Ha

I 've heard of that . That's why I'm looking into a cohabitation agreement or outliving my SO.
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