Suspending Sales? Wow!

[ERD50]

This article worded it differently (again, bold mine):

Toyota Knocks ABC News Report - WSJ.com

At a news conference, engineering consultants hired by Toyota also showed they are able to cause vehicles made by three other auto makers to rev suddenly by making the same electronic modifications used by a college professor who was the subject of the ABC report, and who testified before Congress last month.

Of course, "they all do that" may not be the best defense.

On a somewhat related note ... I was reminded today of a scary story one of our friends told. Their oven got stuck "ON". By the time they realized it, the "SELF CLEANING" Interlock had activated, locking the oven door, with a chicken hitting critical mass inside. They ended up calling the Fire Dept, and they managed to get it shut off.

NOTE TO SELF - plan a safety check with the family, and make sure they know how to turn off the circuit panel, and Natural Gas valves (I'm not sure that can be turned off by the homeowner, turning it off and back on w/o making sure pilots are lit can cause problems).

-ERD50

 

[M Paquette]

Well, looks like the government has decided that it will be mandatory for all new cars to automatically go to idle when the brakes are applied. This is undoubtedly a good design feature, but won't be without cost.

It's going to make track days interesting. There are things done at speed that this change will make more difficult to unexpectedly impossible.

Oopsie.

Hopefully the government will come out with a mandated fix for cars equipped with carburetors. Somehow we survived all these years depending on nothing more than a spring to counter a sticky throttle cable.

I can just see it. An extra set of reaallly big springs, drawn back by a vacuum motor, and released on braking. Maybe with something to unlatch the throttle linkage, too, so that it won't relatch until brakes are off and engine RPM is below some threshold. I have a prototype...

 

[M Paquette]

Among their claims: It never happens in the real world that wires lose their insulation and short. It never happens that wires located a distance from each other can short together. Since cars sometimes use the metal of the frame to complete circuits, I can only say I am flabbergasted by their assertion that out of millions of vehicles this can NEVER happen.

What the professor did was connect the throttle position wires from both position sensors to the power supply. That put a signal out on both the wires at the same time that looked exactly like what goes out when the pedal is mashed to the floor. I wouldn't call this a 'never happens', but it is a very unlikely event that both lines would short to power simultaneously. If only one shorted to power, the control system should see the inconsistent signals as a fault, triggering a safety action of some sort and lighting the Check Engine light.

The same compound fault on other electrically controlled throttle systems is very likely to produce a similar result, as the other consultant demonstrated.

I do not think trying to guard against a simultaneous double short to power would be the best use of engineering effort, though. I'd much rather see actual field faults reproduced in a controlled manner, identification of previously unknown fault states done, and additional hardware and software hardening against new classes of faults implemented. This is the broad sort of thing that the 'brake overrides throttle' changes try to address.

A team of lawyers, politicians, and publicists may not be the optimal group to address complex technical and engineering issues. Be very leery of political solutions to engineering problems.

 

[NW-Bound]

I am also skeptical of the "simultaneous double short to power" demonstration. It appears highly unlikely. But then, there has been a freak aircraft accident where a single mechanical fault managed to take down multiple hydraulic systems that were supposed to provide redundancy.

With any system, electrical or mechanical, one can concoct some modifications or alterations to cause a disastrous result. The question always comes down to how probable that could happen in real life. Can normal wear and tear cause that?

Another question to answer is what reliability the electronic throttle has demonstrated against its mechanical predecessor? What are the respective accidental rates? Has anyone had a definitive answer?

And whether electronic or mechanical throttle, as a driver, I want assurances that my ability to shut down the engine and to shift the transmission into neutral is not dependent on the same gizmo that provides the throttle function. Even the most novice PC users know that a computer can crash in such a way that it does not respond to the 3-finger salute (Ctl-Alt-Del). One often has to yank the power cord or uses the power switch that bypasses the CPU and directly controls the power supply. It's that simple.

A "throttle-by-wire" does not have to be as robust as an aircraft "fly-by-wire" system. Again, one can park a car and walk home, but does not have that option with an aircraft with a "dead stick". But is there anything that would hinder the car driver's ability to shut the damn thing down, without using the "thing" itself in the shutting-down process? It's still not clear to me.

I am not knowledgeable about new car designs to see if car makers make the same efforts as aircraft and avionics equipment producers in the so called FMEA of their products (Failure Modes and Effects Analysis). They might have done that already.

Oh, accidents still happen despite their best efforts, but in the aircraft business, they do not want to be accused of adding features willy-nilly just because they are "cool". All failure ramifications have to be considered. The analyses and studies are expensive, but still less costly than liability lawsuits.

 

[growing_older]

I think it is important to remember that people are looking for causes of sudden acceleration accidents that are freakishly rare. Many many millions of cars on the road driving tens of thousands of miles each for years and years, and there are some hundred perhaps reported cases. Even if a particular fault is very very rare, the number of car-miles-years involved is so large it can perhaps allow for quite rare things to happen. If the number of trials is large enough, then very unlikely things are likely to occur at least occasionally.

PS My old beater with poor cold weather idle used to require a light touch on the accelerator even when stopped with the brake on, else it would sputter and die. The proposed new interlock will put an end that that.

 

[Trek]

The plot thickens with a runaway Prius.

Driver: My Prius took me for a ride - CNN.com

 

[REWahoo]

Publicity like this does make it difficult for any company to gain public trust:

NBC Today Show - Runaway Prius Video

 

[M Paquette]

The plot thickens with a runaway Prius.

Driver: My Prius took me for a ride - CNN.com

This is an interesting one. From this, it sounds more like a mechanical failure than an electrical or software issue:

At one point, Sikes said he reached down to try to pull the accelerator up, but it "stayed right where it was."

It might not be the floor mat mechanical interference issue, though:

But Sikes said "my mat was perfect. There was nothing wrong with my mat."
Sikes said he took his 2008 Prius into a local Toyota dealership about two weeks ago for service and gave workers there his recall notice. He said he was told his car wasn't on the recall list.

If the pedal stayed down, and there was no interference with the mechanism, as from a floor mat, this sounds like a failure of a simple spring or the tab from the Hall Effect sensor magnet (the green thing in the picture) breaking off.

With any luck, Mr. Sikes report is accurate, the vehicle will remain in the 'stuck throttle' state, and we'll get a real failure analysis.

 

[TromboneAl]

This latest story was presented on the news as if the patrolman drove his car in front of the Prius, then put on the brakes and slowed it down. This picture is worth about negative 1 billion dollars for Toyota:

Not exactly true, however. Still serious, and a real problem for Toyota, but in reality the cop told the guy how to turn off his car

Based on instructions from the police officer [via loudspeaker], Sikes used his brakes and his emergency brake to slow the car down. Sikes said the car slowed to 55. After several attempts to shut off the car by using the ignition button, he was successful.​

 

[Trek]

Isn't it good press for Toyota that a Prius can reach 90mph?

 

[TromboneAl]

Here's the San Diego incident 911 call:

Listen: 911 Tape in 94 MPH San Diego Incident - ABC News

It's not clear from that whether the guy did try to put the gearshift in neutral or hold the power button down for five seconds. I'm curious about that.

Could one of you Prius owners tell me what happens if you hold down the accelerator pedal and push the gearshift into neutral? Also, have you tried holding down the power button? Those might be good things to do ahead of time, as a drill.

Here's the '08 Prius console:

And a close-up of the gear shft:

 

[samclem]

I think it is interesting that we've had several cases where people called 911 when their cars started to behave strangely. People have become very aware of/dependent on the ever-present ability to "get help" regardless of whether it is appropriate to call or not. Is it really likely that distracting yourself with a 911 call is going to prove more useful than applying this same effort to addressing the problem of a runaway car yourself? Did the cop really suggest anything over the PA (20 minutes after the incident started) that the driver shouldn't have tried himself already?

In the flying "biz," it is drilled into students that they should always 1) Aviate (e.g. fly the plane) 2) Navigate , and 3) Communicate in that order. Outcomes are often poor when folks key the mic before addressing the immediate source of their problem.

 

[Westernskies]

Among their claims: It never happens in the real world that wires lose their insulation and short. It never happens that wires located a distance from each other can short together.

There are 230 people who were on board TWA flight 800 who could offer empirical evidence to the contrary, if they were alive to testify.

 

[Zathras]

Actually this is one of the best things that could have happened for Toyota.
One of the issues they have been having is they have not been able to test a car immediately after this type of thing happened. Neither has the NHSTA.
Now they both are doing so.
No gaurentee of course that this was the same issue. And luckily no one got hurt. Sure wish the guy had been willing to put it into neutral, would have been over a lot quicker.

 

[Zathras]

Here's the San Diego incident 911 call:

Listen: 911 Tape in 94 MPH San Diego Incident - ABC News

It's not clear from that whether the guy did try to put the gearshift in neutral or hold the power button down for five seconds. I'm curious about that.

According to the driver's statements afterwards, he was afraid of flipping the car if he put it into neutral, so he refused (this is also backed up by the police officer who said the driver 'shook his head' when the officer instructed him to do so).
He 'hit the power button' a number of times according to reports, however he did not hold it down. Holding the power button down for 3 seconds will turn the engine off.
However, you loose power steering and I believe power brakes. And, when racing around at 94mpg 3 seconds probably seems like 3 hours.

Could one of you Prius owners tell me what happens if you hold down the accelerator pedal and push the gearshift into neutral? Also, have you tried holding down the power button? Those might be good things to do ahead of time, as a drill.

The design is that the car goes into neutral and you will coast. Hitting the brakes at that time, even lightly should bring you to a stop.
I have not tried either of these while the car is moving, but from hearing from other Prius drivers who have, both behave as designed.

Here's the '08 Prius console:

And a close-up of the gear shft:

These are actualy the new 2010

 

[Zathras]

Among their claims: It never happens in the real world that wires lose their insulation and short.

This is simply untrue.
They never claimed that wires never loose their insulation and short.
What they claimed was that the odds against a short occuring in both wires at the exact same time was so remote it isn't even funny AND that the same fault can be created in other cars which also use electronic throttles in the same way.

I think secondary redundancies are a great for safety. But don't just require the backups for Toyota, require it for all cars using electronic throttles.

 

[cantlogin]

The next time I see flashing red lights in my rearview mirror while I'm going 90 mph I think I'll put the pedal to the metal and call 911. I'll either get off scot-free and be famous or I'll be cited for both using the phone and speeding.

 

[happy2bretired]

One good thing about calling 911 is...if you crash and kill yourself there won't be any indication that you had problems. With the 911 call it's very clear that you didn't just speed and crash.

 

[cantlogin]

Speed Dialing

 

[travelover]

One good thing about calling 911 is...if you crash and kill yourself there won't be any indication that you had problems. With the 911 call it's very clear that you didn't just speed and crash.

Maybe Toyota can get their own version of OnStar - it would save one hand for holding down the off button.

 

[Westernskies]

Speed Dialing

 

[FIREd]

I am not concerned about falling residual values (I paid cash, so no risk of being upside down). I intend to keep my Camry until the wheels fall off. That's what we've done will all our cars.

Well, the wheels almost fell off my new Camry. Literally.

A couple of weeks ago I noticed that one of the lug nuts on the front right wheel was missing but I did not think much of it. I thought that either the dealership forgot to install it or someone tried to steal the wheel but was defeated by the wheel lock. Anyways, I took the car to Toyota and they replaced it.

Well, tonight I noticed that another lug nut was missing and several other lug nuts were pretty loose as well. I remember hearing a loud banging noise while driving 2 days ago, and it was probably the lug nut falling off and ricocheting against the under carriage.

 

[samclem]

Well, tonight I noticed that another lug nut was missing and several other lug nuts were pretty loose as well.

Who's the beneficiary on your life insurance policy? Do they have access to your car? As a thought--would you mind if I took out a policy on you?

 

[NW-Bound]

...another lug nut was missing and several other lug nuts were pretty loose as well...

Sure looks like poor workmanship. But at the factory or dealership? Did the dealer install fancy wheels for you?

About wheels falling off, I remember this story. Many years ago, driving home from work on a freeway with 3 lanes in each direction, I was in the outer lane and passed an old VW Beetle in the center lane. This VW was immobilized and as I passed it, I saw that the front left wheel was missing, and the driver sitting there stunned. So, I knew his wheel fell off barely seconds before I arrived on the scene.

This was more than 20 years ago, and we did not have heavy traffic on this freeway like we do now (and there are now 5 or 6 lanes in each direction). Anyway, as I drove past the guy, I slowed down and scanned the road for his wheel to make sure I wouldn't run over it. Some distance later, perhaps 1/4 mile, I saw it! It was still rolling down the middle of the freeway, though started to show sign of slowing down. People in cars that merged into this freeway from a later entrance were swerving to avoid it. Of course they were stunned to see a free-wheeling tire rolling down the freeway. It was GREAT!

 

[ERD50]

Well, the wheels almost fell off my new Camry. Literally.

A couple of weeks ago I noticed that one of the lug nuts on the front right wheel was missing but I did not think much of it. I thought that either the dealership forgot to install it or someone tried to steal the wheel but was defeated by the wheel lock. Anyways, I took the car to Toyota and they replaced it.

Well, tonight I noticed that another lug nut was missing and several other lug nuts were pretty loose as well. I remember hearing a loud banging noise while driving 2 days ago, and it was probably the lug nut falling off and ricocheting against the under carriage.

I'll repeat what samclem said, but with all seriousness. Does someone have access to your car (not in a locked garage)? I really have never seen lug nuts just come loose, and if you took it to the dealer to replace one lug nut I would hope and expect them to check the torque on all the lug nuts. It may be kids thinking they are just playing around, but it could have very serious results.

If they were all loose, and the dealer only replaced one w/o checking the others, I would never go to that dealer again for anything. Seriously.

-ERD50