tankless water heater, anyone ?

[Texas Proud]

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Originally Posted by Nords How many of us do that with our dishwashers? The steel braid looked fine, too, except for those two pinhole leaks spraying out of it and simultaneously soaking both the kitchen cabinet and under the dishwasher. Thank goodness we were home and found the water (or it found us) before bedtime. The hose was 10 years, three months, and eight days old.

What scares me the most is you KNOW when you put it in.... I did it 'some time last year'...

And don't you know that you are supposed to turn off your water to your washer after each use

BTW... have you had your line to your ice maker freeze up?? The space between the outside and the inside?? I did... every so often I heard this spraying noise... found the water running from behind the refrig... and all down the wall was wet... yuck..

[TromboneAl]

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I ask because most HWH's come with an "annual cost" sticker on them that provides an "average" use cost and almost all of them are in the $230-270 a year range. Which makes saving $300 a year seem a bit odd.

Here's the explanation: My sticker (and maybe yours) is based on a propane cost of 77 cents per gallon. Propane here costs about $2.40 per gallon.

If your sticker is based on that price, the tank water heater annual cost would be $779 instead of $250 when using the current propane cost.

My sticker says that it uses 189 gallons of propane per year ("$145"). Scale that to the real cost of propane and it is $451/year.

[JohnEyles]

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Originally Posted by El Guapo ... the guys cheap braided toilet line broke while he was at work ... The braided HW line under my sink had let go.

Yikes, is there something wrong wth braided lines ? I assume you means the ones
with a metal (stainless ?) sheath over the hose ?

I replaced my washer hoses with these a couple years back. Of course, the old
all-rubber (unsheathed) ones, which were about 15 years old, looked just fine.
Did I make a mistake ? The braided ones were from Lowes or HD, the old
rubber ones installed by the plumbing contractor ...

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Nah, those are the way to go. Solid copper is best but its tough to do on a washing machine. Aside from that a quality braided stainless steel hose is the good stuff...far more burst proof than the plain rubber hoses they come with. There ARE quality differences between braided hoses though. Chances are if you found some that were super cheap with an off-brand, they might not be that great.

How long your hoses last is a parallel to how long your water heater lasts...depends on the water quality and how hot your hot water is. Some water will deteriorate hose materials and super hot water will hasten the process. In some areas the old standard rubber hoses might outlast the washer. In others, you might get a burst hose after 7-8 years.

My dad used to do that "shut off the valves" thing every time he did a load of laundry. Of course the valve wore out and started leaking instead. Apparently not a good idea. Unless you're going away for the weekend or a couple of weeks.

[TromboneAl]

I'm lucky in that the washer is in the garage, and the garage floor slopes down for this reason.

If a burst hose could cause thousands in damages, there is a device to prevent this problem:

Device

[Ibid]

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Originally Posted by TromboneAl I'm lucky in that the washer is in the garage, and the garage floor slopes down for this reason.

I thought that too until the water heater went out. Half the water ran out the garage and the other half came into the house. Not what you want to see when pulling into the driveway after a two week vacation. The pet sitter had been at the house about one hour earlier and didn't notice any water in the driveway. Nasty water stained the carpet brown from the rust. Fortunately it was only in one room.

Now we turn the water heater off (and the washer water) for vacations. Lesson learned the hard way.

[Nords]

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Originally Posted by El Guapo Funny thing...I saw a few articles regarding periodically cleaning the interior of your HWH with a bleach solution, especially if you keep the HW temps low. I can report having investigated my old one and the stuff growing inside, along with the stuff I cleaned out of the supply lines was very displeasing looking. But then again, i've seen the inside of municipal water pipes and those arent that attractive either.

The nastiest, scariest tanks on a submarine aren't the ones that hold the toilet sewage or collect the shower drains... they're the potable water tanks. I still haven't figured out what kind of slimy grass could grow under those conditions, but that's what it looks like.

However it was considered acceptable for human consumption. The water tanks were treated with bromine (chlorine is a forbidden contaminant aboard a submarine) and never caused a problem. So I'm not sure that household water tanks need the bleach treatement-- and I wonder what bleach would do to an anode rod?

The anode rod replacement guidelines recommend draining the water heater just so that the new rod (which would probably have more volume than the consumed old rod) doesn't displace a bunch of water as it's inserted and spill it onto the tank's insulation. Leaving the tank as full as practicable provides a nice mass to hold the tank in place while you beat on it delicately extract the anode.

And yes, I don't know how the plumbing profession survived before Teflon tape. All our new water heaters have their anodes checked & rethreaded with Teflon tape before they're put in service. Why oh why doesn't the public school system teach this with financial literacy and physical education?!?

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud What scares me the most is you KNOW when you put it in.... I did it 'some time last year'...

Haven't you been paying attention to the financial software threads?!? I'm a nuclear engineer with over 100,000 transactions stored on nearly 15 years of Quicken records. I have a reputation to uphold-- I'm at the point now where my spouse is either offended or teases me if I can't explain when/how much we've spent on something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud And don't you know that you are supposed to turn off your water to your washer after each use

Yeah, it's on the list. I come from a culture where operating a cheap isolation valve means it'll leak/break long before the supply hoses will suffer. I like the little ball valves with a flip lever on the supply manifold, but we haven't tackled that honey-do yet.

We have a plastic tray under our washing machine with a drain line into the lower part of the garage. So if a hose breaks close enough to the machine then it'll hopefully drain out the front instead of into our kid's room again.

I determined that our dishwasher is hard-piped to our kitchen sink supply line, so I've stopped worrying about that one. But I never thought of toilet hoses! From now on we'll be shutting off the house water before we go on vacation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud BTW... have you had your line to your ice maker freeze up?? The space between the outside and the inside?? I did... every so often I heard this spraying noise... found the water running from behind the refrig... and all down the wall was wet... yuck..

I'm gonna have to add this problem to my "Lucky You Live Hawaii" list!

[F M All]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords The water tanks were treated with bromine

Are you sure that wasn't bromide?

[Texas Proud]

Nords...

Living in Hawaii will not protect you from the ice line freezing.... the hose inserts into the back of the fridge... but only a short distance... then there is an internal line to the ice tray... this internal line froze solid. The next time the tray 'asked' for water... well, you can guess the rest...

I had to use a hanger to beat the crap out of remove the ice blockage.. then pour some hot water down the tube...

It has happened twice in 25 years...

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords I like the little ball valves with a flip lever on the supply manifold, but we haven't tackled that honey-do yet.

I can save you the honey...thats the valve my dad had that started leaking like a sieve after a few years of flipping.

Another thing I discovered while I was shopping our new Lowes Grand Opening, which was disappointing as an employee earlier in the week said they'd have free hot dogs and 10% off everything in the store yet neither materialized. They sell little "water hammer arrestors" that you can screw onto the laundry supply valves and then connect your washing machine hoses to those. A water hammer arrestor is usually built into a quality plumbing job and either consists of a vertical capped pipe that is left filled with air or capped with a spring or air loaded plunger. These prevent the 'pipe banging' or 'water hammer' you get when a water valve is abruptly opened or closed, or left open a very small amount. Slight to moderate water hammer over a period of years will likely be the cause of many of your long term plumbing leaks. Unfortunately in the process of slapping together tract homes using labor hired that morning often results in no hammer arrestor being installed on many home plumbing systems. Like mine. I was about to make a pair and solder them into the main pipes up in the attic...but something easier than that would be nice.

Ten bucks each, one each for hot and cold, 2 minute installation between the washer valves and hoses. Niiiice. And I can take them with me when I move!

[scrinch]

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Aside from that a quality braided stainless steel hose is the good stuff...far more burst proof than the plain rubber hoses they come with.

What's the advantage of a braided steel hose on a washing machine? All the steel braided lines I've ever seen are just rubber hose with braiding on the outside. The braiding would help prevent kinking or chafing of the line, but wouldn't prevent cracking, which is likely the primary failure mode.

BTW, I've just bought 3/4" brass ball valves and y-strainers for my washer water inlets. I'm sick and tired of replacing the leaky faucets and cleaning the little rubber gasket strainers that take a beating from our gritty well water.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud Living in Hawaii will not protect you from the ice line freezing.... the hose inserts into the back of the fridge... but only a short distance... then there is an internal line to the ice tray... this internal line froze solid. The next time the tray 'asked' for water... well, you can guess the rest...

Phew, what a relief, I thought you were talking about bad thermal insulation in the wall between the water pipe and the room...

Our current fridge doesn't even have an icemaker. We're debating whether to put up with the hassle of installing one; the water line coming out of the wall is looking pretty gnarly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrinch What's the advantage of a braided steel hose on a washing machine? All the steel braided lines I've ever seen are just rubber hose with braiding on the outside. The braiding would help prevent kinking or chafing of the line, but wouldn't prevent cracking, which is likely the primary failure mode.

Just to buttress the rubber's weak spots from kinking, chafing, water hammer, rodents, cold weather, or other problems. You're absolutely right about the cracking, which is why even steel hoses should be replaced after 10 years.

I need to look into T-Al's Intelliflow shutoff valve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrinch BTW, I've just bought 3/4" brass ball valves and y-strainers for my washer water inlets. I'm sick and tired of replacing the leaky faucets and cleaning the little rubber gasket strainers that take a beating from our gritty well water.

Have you considered a particulate filter or an ion-exchange resin water conditioner on your house's water-supply line? They're about $500 bucks (and a $5 bag of salt every couple months) but they'll filter out the crap before it gets to the rest of the house & appliances. They also cut the sink & toilet cleaning (water stains, mineral rings) way back.

[Ibid]

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Originally Posted by El Guapo ..."water hammer arrestors" that you can screw onto the laundry supply valves and then connect your washing machine hoses to those. A water hammer arrestor is usually built into a quality plumbing job and either consists of a vertical capped pipe that is left filled with air or capped with a spring or air loaded plunger. These prevent the 'pipe banging' or 'water hammer' you get when a water valve is abruptly opened or closed, or left open a very small amount. ... Ten bucks each, one each for hot and cold, 2 minute installation between the washer valves and hoses. Niiiice. And I can take them with me when I move!

I had given up looking for those - you wouldn't happen to know the brand name/manufacturer?

[cute fuzzy bunny]

http://www.siouxchief.com/B_Products_Prods.cfm?ID=35

Sioux Chief "mini rester". Were in the water heater hookup area at home depot and near the washing machine hose hookup area at my lowes.

http://www.siouxchief.com/PDF/MiniResterbrochure04.PDF

I've been told that these spring loaded variety do 'wear out' after a while, particularly if you have a lot of valves opening and closing abruptly and regular hammer problems. Best thing to do if you have a real problem with this (aside from replacing the valves causing the problems) is to pick a high spot in the attic where your pipes run, cut into the hot and cold and solder in a tee facing up, then solder in 18" of pipe and cap it. The air trapped in that pipe will become a fully effective hammer arrestor. Occasionally the pipe may become waterlogged, in which case draining the system fully restores the arrestor function.

But these sure are a lot easier to do...

[Ibid]

Many thanks for the response. This means I get to cross something off the honey-do list

I got one (same brand, Sioux Chief) around 10 years back for the cold water side of the washer. When I motivated to put one on the hot water side, they were nowhere to be found.

[jazz4cash]

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Originally Posted by scrinch What's the advantage of a braided steel hose on a washing machine? All the steel braided lines I've ever seen are just rubber hose with braiding on the outside.

Sounds cosmetic to me. Braided steel hoses are common for heavy-duty vehicles for abrasion resistance as you stated, but many of these lines which are designed for 300'F/350PSI have no external braiding at all.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Braiding stops a bulge and helps reduce torsional stress on the hose.

[REWahoo]

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Originally Posted by Cute 'n Fuzzy Bunny Braiding stops a bulge and helps reduce torsional stress on the hose.

Yup. It serves the same purpose as a Trojan.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

What the hell does the university of southern california's football team have to do with this?

[REWahoo]

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Originally Posted by Cute 'n Fuzzy Bunny What the hell does the university of southern california's football team have to do with this?

They wear hats?