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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?
Old 01-13-2007, 07:52 PM   #41
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
Have you considered a particulate filter or an ion-exchange resin water conditioner on your house's water-supply line? They're about $500 bucks (and a $5 bag of salt every couple months) but they'll filter out the crap before it gets to the rest of the house & appliances. They also cut the sink & toilet cleaning (water stains, mineral rings) way back.
We have an ion exchange water conditioner followed by a similar iron filter (oxidizes, precipitates, and filters out Fe). It may be the beads from this filter that end up clogging the washing machine. I suppose a whole-house particulate filter might be a more permanent solution, since we also have to clean out the grit from the shower heads every few years. For the whole house would I use one of those canister-type filters, or a simple y- or t-strainer with a fine-mesh screen like I have for the untreated outdoor sprinkler/faucet water?
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?
Old 01-14-2007, 07:49 AM   #42
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute 'n Fuzzy Bunny
http://www.siouxchief.com/B_Products_Prods.cfm?ID=35

Sioux Chief "mini rester". Were in the water heater hookup area at home depot and near the washing machine hose hookup area at my lowes.

http://www.siouxchief.com/PDF/MiniResterbrochure04.PDF

Best thing to do if you have a real problem with this (aside from replacing the valves causing the problems) is to pick a high spot in the attic where your pipes run, cut into the hot and cold and solder in a tee facing up, then solder in 18" of pipe and cap it.
But these sure are a lot easier to do...
Wouldn't a single rester in the hot and one in the cold supply lines in the attic protect the entire house?

Thx,

W

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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?
Old 01-14-2007, 08:21 AM   #43
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?

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Our current fridge doesn't even have an icemaker.


OMG what are you, like CAMPING?


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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?
Old 01-14-2007, 08:58 AM   #44
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrinch
We have an ion exchange water conditioner followed by a similar iron filter (oxidizes, precipitates, and filters out Fe). It may be the beads from this filter that end up clogging the washing machine.
IX resins aren't supposed to do that, and there's a problem if you're seeing resin fines in the washing-machine filters. I don't know about the iron filter-- we put a chelating powder ("Iron Out") in the water conditioner's salt reservoir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrinch
I suppose a whole-house particulate filter might be a more permanent solution, since we also have to clean out the grit from the shower heads every few years. For the whole house would I use one of those canister-type filters, or a simple y- or t-strainer with a fine-mesh screen like I have for the untreated outdoor sprinkler/faucet water?
Either type of whole-house filter should work but there's still the chance of other corrosion in the copper piping inside the house (especially if the water has an acidic pH) that's putting the grit in the shower heads.

We've had a water conditioner in a rental home for nearly 10 years. Every time I've opened the inlet filter I've found... nothing. Yet we still occasionally have grit to clean out of the shower heads and mineral rings in the toilets, so the water conditioner doesn't get every last bit of calcium or magnesium. Or else something is happening in the house's water pipes or people are putting their own Ca & Mg in the toilets...

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Originally Posted by BUM
OMG what are you, like CAMPING?
After the second rodent I decided to stop advertising "Free water!" for a while. We've never hooked it back up.

I wonder what costs less-- having your refrigerator make the ice or buying it from the store.
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?
Old 01-14-2007, 12:27 PM   #45
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wallygador69
Wouldn't a single rester in the hot and one in the cold supply lines in the attic protect the entire house?
To a degree. In a perfect world, you have an arrestor at each solenoid/high speed valve, as close to the valve as possible. For example, these washing machine ones should be connected to the washer rather than the washers valves. The further away the arrestor is from the 'problem' valve, the longer the reaction time to stop the water hammer. A central arrestor is a decent compromise but not quite ideal.

Washing machines, dishwashers, some toilet valves, and irrigation valve solenoids are usually the evil-doers.

Nords...I have a whole house carbon and grit filter yet oddly I still get some fine grained sandy stuff in my inlet baskets. When I replaced the washing machine lines yesterday the hot water inlet basket was JAMMED full of fine grain whitish/tan colored sand. Nothing in the cold. I moved that water heater 2.5 years ago and it was clean then. Methinks some of this is mineral sediment formed in the water heater, after the filter. Or maybe some sort of buildup in the pipes, probably at a low point or a joint, that periodically lets go.

Should be interesting to keep an eye on going forward. The new WH i put in had a swirly inlet that allegedly self cleans the unit continuously rather than letting the sediment build up in the bottom of the WH. If that works, I should get more crud in the hot water inlets, and in all inlets that combine water.
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?
Old 01-14-2007, 02:07 PM   #46
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute 'n Fuzzy Bunny
Washing machines, dishwashers, some toilet valves, and irrigation valve solenoids are usually the evil-doers.
So you're saying it's probably not a coincidence that the pipe junction that failed
the other night is for one of the water lines (the cold one) to my washing machine ?
Interesting. Makes sense I guess. The inertia of water flowing in a pipe is analogous
to an electrical inductor, in which voltage (water pressure) is proportional to derivative
of current (water flow). So an abrupt change in flow generates a big pressure pulse.

Time to get one of these water-hammer arrestor dohickies. Why are they better than
one you just improvise with a vertical dead-end piece of pipe with air in it ?

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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?
Old 01-14-2007, 02:46 PM   #47
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?

Well, the makers of true arrestors claim that the air filled pipes eventually become water logged and lose their effectiveness. Some claim this is worse the smaller the pipe diameter. Since the air filled vertical pipe is a time honored plumbing tradition, I suspect it works better than the arrestor makers make it out to. Thing is, 18 inches of horizontal pipe (dont go there Wahoo) is tough to tuck behind a washing machine. And ten bucks isnt that much money.

The old fashioned plumbers point out that the diaphragm in the arrestor will eventually fail, but the arrestor makers claim 500,000 (or more) actuations before failure. Thats a lot of loads of laundry.

Your analogy is good enough as to the problem. You make a pulse and it has to be dissipated somehow. In normal operation, this is dissipated by shaking the crap out of your pipes. Over time well fastened pipes will loosen, making the problem worse. Newer valves with faster, more direct on/off operation, faster and cheaper solenoids all contribute.

I'm gonna slip one on the dishwasher next week when I have a chance. Looks like they make one sized for that.
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?
Old 01-14-2007, 03:17 PM   #48
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute 'n Fuzzy Bunny
Thing is, 18 inches of horizontal pipe (dont go there Wahoo) is tough to tuck behind a washing machine.


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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?
Old 01-14-2007, 04:28 PM   #49
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?

Shoot I meant vertical pipe, which just makes it worse.
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?
Old 01-15-2007, 07:45 PM   #50
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyShackleford
So you're saying it's probably not a coincidence that the pipe junction that failed
the other night is for one of the water lines (the cold one) to my washing machine ?
Interesting. Makes sense I guess. The inertia of water flowing in a pipe is analogous
to an electrical inductor, in which voltage (water pressure) is proportional to derivative
of current (water flow). So an abrupt change in flow generates a big pressure pulse.

Time to get one of these water-hammer arrestor dohickies. Why are they better than
one you just improvise with a vertical dead-end piece of pipe with air in it ?




I recently replaced my water heater (freebie lifetime item from Lowes!) and Holy crap! the damn thing musta weighed 200 lbs. It was filled with sand and beach crud! Amazing, and it was on the second floor


Moral of the story.... if you're by-the-sea, get the lifetime warrantee unit



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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?
Old 01-16-2007, 12:01 AM   #51
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BUM
I recently replaced my water heater (freebie lifetime item from Lowes!) and Holy crap! the damn thing musta weighed 200 lbs. It was filled with sand and beach crud! Amazing, and it was on the second floor
Moral of the story.... if you're by-the-sea, get the lifetime warrantee unit
Another moral would be the quarterly bucket-flush out the drain connection at the bottom until it the grit stops coming out.

When we have a water conditioner upstream, though, we never get any grit.
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?
Old 01-16-2007, 08:04 AM   #52
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?

Lots of people do the bucket thing but dont get much of the grit out because they dont follow the directions.

For most water heaters, turn off the burner; shut off the water; attach a hose (bucket aint gonna cut it) and drain as much water as will come out of the unit; turn the water back on until you have a pretty good flow from the hose, wait a few minutes, then shut the water off. Rinse and repeat the water on/off until you get no more crud.

Draining the heater and then turning the water on and off makes a swirling action at the bottom of the WH that helps expel the crap through the drain. Otherwise it mostly sits in the bottom and while you might drain off some excess, you arent getting a whole lot.
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?
Old 01-16-2007, 12:55 PM   #53
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute 'n Fuzzy Bunny
You make a pulse and it has to be dissipated somehow. In normal operation, this is dissipated by shaking the crap out of your pipes. Over time well fastened pipes will loosen, making the problem worse.
Wow, you know a lot about plumbing for a cute/fuzzy bunny.

I wonder if plastic/Qest pipes are less problematic due to their inherent
flexibility absorbing the pressure pulse ?

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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?
Old 01-16-2007, 08:26 PM   #54
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Re: tankless water heater, anyone ?

That new plastic stuff is pretty interesting, and yes it'll take more stress than copper pipe but its still susceptible to water hammer...just less so.

But flexible, largely self insulating, easy to install. Which means it'll probably cause cancer or become self-aware and kill you in your sleep.
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