tankless water heater, anyone ?

[JohnEyles]

My water heater (and its house) are 18 years old and I figure the thing
may go soon. Been contemplating and researching the tankless "instant"
kind, because obviously I'll want to move quickly when the time comes.
I undersatnd all the basic pros/cons of the things I believe, but have yet
to talk to anyone who actualy has one. I'm interested, in particular,
about any extra time you must wait for the hot water to start flowing.
Seems to me it'd be about the same, mainly determined by the amount
of plumbing between the heater and faucet, but I wonder if the time for
the heater to start producing hot water is siginificant compared to that.
Or any other issues the pro-tankless webpages may have neglected to
mention. Thanks.

[REWahoo]

Here are a couple of threads. You can find more discussion by searching on "tankless".

http://early-retirement.org/forums/i...p?topic=7419.0
http://early-retirement.org/forums/i...p?topic=2679.0

[JohnEyles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by REWahoo! Here are a couple of threads. You can find more discussion by searching on "tankless". http://early-retirement.org/forums/i...p?topic=7419.0 http://early-retirement.org/forums/i...p?topic=2679.0

Good stuff, thanks; hadn't thought about the noise issue. One faucet (kitchen)
is FAR away from bathrooms and laundry. A separate electric one there would be nice,
but the amperage requirements are huge - you cannah violate the laws of physics !

[cute fuzzy bunny]

As mentioned in one of the threads linked, I had trouble with "spot" electric heaters leaking and a plumber friend confirmed that they dont tend to live very long before leaking.

As also mentioned in one of the threads, I put one of these in my wifes old house before we got married. Made sense for her; the house was already torn apart, we were completely replumbing it, and her hot water uses were all at once in the morning and on weekends for dish/clothes washing. One bathroom so we got away with using the small $500 tankless unit. It produced hot water fairly immediately (huge burner)...no different from the old tank unit.

For a more than one bathroom household that uses hot water periodically throughout the day (think "ER"), the initial unit cost and retrofit installation just outweigh some savings that may not materialize at all.

My HWH started leaking 2 weeks ago and I re-re-re-reviewed the whole scenario. Only problem with the old heater was we occasionally ran out of HW (40 gallon gas unit). Hot water heating alone ran us $7.50-15.00 a month. Best possible scenario was a $1000 tankless unit that would take me 2 days to install (or about $500-700 to pay for it) might save me $3-5 per month. Worst case scenario was a cost wash or it might even cost more for the tankless since I'm regularly turning on faucets.

Decided to stick with the tank and bump it to 50 gallons. After looking at everything out there I chose a kenmore power miser 12, which is made by AO Smith and is their higher end "conservationist" model. Seemed to me that all the local plumbers were installing AO Smiths, two neighbor homes built at the same time have AO smiths and theirs arent leaking yet while my Rheem made one was, and there was some consensus that the Ruud/Rheem/ models sold through Lowes and Home Depot under the Whirlpool and GE names werent that great.

The latter might be simply force of numbers...I suspect many people just call HD or Lowes and ask them to slap one in, so higher numbers of potential complaints.

The one I got has R-16 insulation (many cheaper ones have less), an efficiency rating of .63 (the HD/Lowes and other similar models are .58; delta is about $15 a year in gas savings and qualifies for a $30 PG&E rebate), and had a faster first hour delivery and faster recovery time.

Total cost was $429-$30 pg&e rebate. Took me about 2 hours total to remove the old one and install the new one, which saved me about $300-400 in installation costs.

Pretty straightforward although you'll probably have to do a little soldering if yours isnt installed with screw on flexi lines. I just had to solder the pressure valve pipe, the original flexi water and gas supply were good enough to reuse.

And heavy. Old one was 165lbs and the new one was 195. Turned out to be not much of a problem. I just pushed the old one off the stand and rolled it out of the garage. Set the base of the new one up on the platform and then picked up the other end and 'levered' it up. Piece of thick cardboard kept the new one from getting scratched or dented.

[JohnEyles]

Thanks for the comments on tank vs tankless and on tank quality.

I find it hard to complain about my 40gal LP unit - I've had it for 19 years
with nary a problem - of course, perhaps I'll wake up tomorrow with a
flooded house ... It is Penfield brand, made by State Industries (Ashland TN).

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

3 years, propane fired tankless system. Flawless so far. And cheap. And "endless hot water" within reason.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnEyles Thanks for the comments on tank vs tankless and on tank quality. I find it hard to complain about my 40gal LP unit - I've had it for 19 years with nary a problem - of course, perhaps I'll wake up tomorrow with a flooded house ... It is Penfield brand, made by State Industries (Ashland TN).

Thats what just blew up on me...a State Censible unit. Actually not that bad.

The gist of water heater death is corrosion. Units come with either one or two anode rods made of either aluminum or magnesium that allow themselves to be eaten by corrosive elements in the water. A "six year" heater has one rod, a "ten" or "twelve" year heater has two. They can be replaced, and the hot water "dip tube" the hot water line is hooked to can be replaced with a combination rod/dip tube.

As Nords will tell you, replacing a rod can be an entertaining experience. But easier than replacing the whole HWH.

Now, if you have a fairly uncorrosive water supply, the heater and its rods might last a good bit longer than 5/6 or 10/12 years. On the other hand, if you're feeding it "soft" water with some corrosive elements, you might be replacing a rod or seeing some leaks fairly quickly.

We had crappy corrosive well water run through a softener until a little over a year ago when we got switched to city water. Hence the measly 8 year run on my old heater.

One last aside on the anodes...some indications are that aluminum may be contributory to alzheimers. I got a unit with a magnesium rod, cuz god knows the last thing I need is any further brain decay.

Rich - what model do you have? Some of them require replacing a water valve periodically and a few of the Bosch units made a few years ago used a defective screw that fused itself to the valve housing, requiring a very expensive unit replacement. Many find that removing (if possible at this stage) and replacing those screws with lubed stainless screws for a couple of dollars solves that problem.

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Guapo Rich - what model do you have? Some of them require replacing a water valve periodically and a few of the Bosch units made a few years ago used a defective screw that fused itself to the valve housing, requiring a very expensive unit replacement. Many find that removing (if possible at this stage) and replacing those screws with lubed stainless screws for a couple of dollars solves that problem.

I'll check it out. Must admit it was not on my list of house-chores to do every year. Maybe it should be...

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I believe its the 125 and 250 Bosch models. Check your owners guide, it may say something about rebuilding the water control valve every 2-5 years. Problem here is that the two set screws that hold the water control valve to the gas control valve rust solid and you're likely to damage the gas control valve if you try to drill them out, so you have to remove the gas and water valves as a unit and replace both, which is a $150-200 proposition. $15 in parts to rebuild the water control valve if its not frozen on.

Preemptively removing the two set screws and replacing them with stainless ones solves the freezing on problems.

Most tankless units require cleaning of an inlet water screen periodically and in areas of hard/high mineral inlet water a periodic de-scaling of the unit with a manufacturer provided descaling solution will extend the life considerably.

[Texas Proud]

Interesting to read about the upkeep... I have had one for a few years without any problems except use..

You have to have enough water going thru to turn the gas on... I had a low flow shower head and it did not allow enough water to get thru except on scald... fixed by taking out the limiter.. now a good hard stream of nice water...

BUT, just found another 'problem'... seems they decided to replace my gas meter without telling me anything about it.. since I was not home they would not turn on the gas... so, no hot water.. and no 'warm' water that used to be in the tank... just cold...

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Guapo As Nords will tell you, replacing a rod can be an entertaining experience. But easier than replacing the whole HWH.

I've become the anode rod guy from hell, but all our water heaters are corrosion-safe now! It was worth the investment in the 3/8" drive with the special deep 1-1/16 socket.

I'm surprised at those efficiency ratings of 0.58 and 0.63. When we bought an electric heater a few years ago we found a 52-gallon high-efficiency model with a rating of 0.92, $200 followed by a $50 rebate from HECO. Maybe it's different for gas...

[Craig]

I checked this out based on one of those discussion threads as well ... I was told it wasn't practical here.

We have a 2,800 sf home, with four bathrooms (one in the basement) ... sometimes we run out of hot water (50 gal tank, as I recall). Tankless vendor / plumber said that to serve this home, they would have to install a larger gas line to the tankless heater, and the natural gas bill would kill us. This was a guy who apparently sold a lot of these.

Surprised me, but I dropped the research at that point.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords I'm surprised at those efficiency ratings of 0.58 and 0.63. When we bought an electric heater a few years ago we found a 52-gallon high-efficiency model with a rating of 0.92, $200 followed by a $50 rebate from HECO. Maybe it's different for gas...

Electric resistance units can hit close to 100%. The best you can find in gas units is around .70 and I didnt come across any of those for residential installs. What surprised me is that PG&E's rebate program kicks in at .62 and almost everything you could get at the mass market stores (HD, Lowes, etc) is lower than that.

From what I saw, the key to hopping the last few points are a little item you can add on to an existing water heater that came standard on mine...little plastic or metal ball valves in the cold and hot pipes that inhibit thermal migration from the tank to the pipes when the heater isnt on. I peered into mine and saw them. Without them, the heat from the water in the tank is inducted away to the pipes in the house. Insulating the pipes helps, but doesnt completely solve the loss.

Sears had some add-on ones for existing water heaters.

Article http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/.../mytopic=13100

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords I've become the anode rod guy from hell, but all our water heaters are corrosion-safe now! It was worth the investment in the 3/8" drive with the special deep 1-1/16 socket.

I tried to replace the anode rod in our heater also. It was so tight, I figured I was very likely to damage something if I tried to put any more force on it. So I gave up.


That must have been seven years ago, water heater is 20 years old, way past it's expected life. But I will follow your recc from the older thread on the next one, wrap teflon tape on it before it gets corroded shut.

-ERD50

[sailor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords I've become the anode rod guy from hell, but all our water heaters are corrosion-safe now! It was worth the investment in the 3/8" drive with the special deep 1-1/16 socket.

Must be the anode season. Changed mine a week ago.
In true LBYM fashion I borrowed 1-1/16 from my FIL.
Also after reading many war stories on the internet, I started with PB Blaster on the old one - worked like a charm.
PS: Why deep socket? Regular worked for me just fine.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailor PS: Why deep socket? Regular worked for me just fine.

I'll hazard a guess. The top of the nut on my old state one was under some foam insulation almost an inch below the top of the unit. You'd need a deep socket just to reach it and give you a little room.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Guapo From what I saw, the key to hopping the last few points are a little item you can add on to an existing water heater that came standard on mine...little plastic or metal ball valves in the cold and hot pipes that inhibit thermal migration from the tank to the pipes when the heater isnt on. I peered into mine and saw them. Without them, the heat from the water in the tank is inducted away to the pipes in the house. Insulating the pipes helps, but doesnt completely solve the loss.

I've learned from the solar guys that those little balls melt above 150 degrees. Ah well. I'm astounded at how much natural circulation our system has (ahem, must be those sleek corners & great solder joints) even past the spring check valve. The pump cycles on for about 20 seconds every half-hour all night long, but I never hear it so it's no bother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 I tried to replace the anode rod in our heater also. It was so tight, I figured I was very likely to damage something if I tried to put any more force on it. So I gave up.

Sorry, I neglected to mention the six-foot cast-iron cheater bar that I gently applied to the end of the socket wrench... it's easiest if the tank is still full of water and hardest if the tank is empty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailor Also after reading many war stories on the internet, I started with PB Blaster on the old one - worked like a charm.

How's the hot water taste? Any stomach flu or diarrhea in the house recently? Just kidding...

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailor PS: Why deep socket? Regular worked for me just fine.

Now I'm jealous. Both of the rods I worked were inside the outer shell buried below an inch of insulation. Even the deep socket barely cleared the interference-- after a bit of hammering percussive adjustment, anyway.

Hey, let me share a little home-improvement tip I learned this evening-- the hard way. Everyone in the world knows to upgrade the rubber water-supply hoses to their washing machine with steel-braided hoses that you religiously replace every 10 years... right?

How many of us do that with our dishwashers? The steel braid looked fine, too, except for those two pinhole leaks spraying out of it and simultaneously soaking both the kitchen cabinet and under the dishwasher. Thank goodness we were home and found the water (or it found us) before bedtime. The hose was 10 years, three months, and eight days old.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords How's the hot water taste? Any stomach flu or diarrhea in the house recently? Just kidding...

Funny thing...I saw a few articles regarding periodically cleaning the interior of your HWH with a bleach solution, especially if you keep the HW temps low.

I can report having investigated my old one and the stuff growing inside, along with the stuff I cleaned out of the supply lines was very displeasing looking. But then again, i've seen the inside of municipal water pipes and those arent that attractive either.

Seemed to me after the new unit went in that the water had a better "smell". The old HWH water had a little bit of an 'earthy' smell.

On the anodes...funny it comes out easier when the tanks full...all the instructions I found have you drain the heater partially before removing it! :P

Quote:

Hey, let me share a little home-improvement tip I learned this evening-- the hard way. Everyone in the world knows to upgrade the rubber water-supply hoses to their washing machine with steel-braided hoses that you religiously replace every 10 years... right?

Great tip that most people forget. I almost bought a house once where the guys cheap braided toilet line broke while he was at work while we were negotiating a price on the house. Foot of water in the place when he got home.

Also had a nice morning about 12 years ago when sitting in my bay area house when suddenly I heard a hissing. The braided HW line under my sink had let go. I was finishing up my coffee and getting ready to head off to a flight to London at the time, so had that let go 10 minutes later...

Speaking of which, my washing machine hoses have to be about 7.5 years old...

[TromboneAl]

Here's an update on the tankless heater 1.5 years in:

My propane costs have gone down dramatically since installing it in mid-2005, although we cutdown somewhat in heating also, and teenage DD left for college. But I estimate that we save at least $300 per year with this heater.

Biggest disadvantage: it takes longer to get the hot water to the tap (up to 2 minutes), since with a tank, hot water diffuses into the pipes all the time. This is more annoying than you might think.

Overall: Recommended.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Al - What are you comparing that to...in other words what was the prior heating method? And whats your usage like?

I ask because most HWH's come with an "annual cost" sticker on them that provides an "average" use cost and almost all of them are in the $230-270 a year range. Which makes saving $300 a year seem a bit odd.

Perhaps your old tank heater had some sort of defect or was really, really inefficient?