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Old 11-08-2009, 01:48 PM   #21
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Spend money on this? Nooooooooo

I tend to be happy being a mixed up mutt and could care less about that aspect of the past. Enjoyed the stories that my elders shared and have passed many along in oral format only. Those who need to embellish them do. What matters to me is today and tomorrows which I have some hand in determining my actions on.
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Old 11-08-2009, 02:17 PM   #22
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Spend money on this? Nooooooooo

I tend to be happy being a mixed up mutt and could care less about that aspect of the past. Enjoyed the stories that my elders shared and have passed many along in oral format only. Those who need to embellish them do. What matters to me is today and tomorrows which I have some hand in determining my actions on.
Yeah, but... it is so enjoyable to say with authority that my family has been in this country since 1650 (yeah, I know -- not 'til 1776) and if it wasn't for all you immigrants, I would have a much better life with a lot more resources at my disposal. And if it wasn't for all of you taking the good jobs, I could have ER'd much sooner.
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Old 11-08-2009, 03:29 PM   #23
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No, I wouldn't pay money for this. I am who I am. I'm not even a little interested in what band of wandering people I'm related to. I never met 'em, they never met me. I'd be interested in genetic predispositions to various diseases, but that's not the subject of the thread.

As I've mentioned before, I don't "get" the whole ethnic pride thing. I'm proud (or not!) of my own actions and accomplishments, but I can't see being "proud" of things you not only didn't do, but which happened before you were born.(snip)
Perhaps some people do take up genealogy out of ethnic pride (which I don't "get" any more than you do), it isn't the only reason. I'm curious to know something about my ancestors, even though after so many years it may not be possible to discover more than a name. Eventually, I will "hit a brick wall", and not be able to find out even that much from the surviving documents, so I'm glad that DNA testing offers another way to satisfy my curiosity about them.
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Old 11-08-2009, 03:51 PM   #24
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Yeah, but... it is so enjoyable to say with authority that my family has been in this country since 1650 (yeah, I know -- not 'til 1776) and if it wasn't for all you immigrants, I would have a much better life with a lot more resources at my disposal. And if it wasn't for all of you taking the good jobs, I could have ER'd much sooner.
Uh, yeah but.....my ancestors were already here before that! Some of those idiots thought it would be 'cute' to let a few 'white folks' into the neighborhood. But when they sobered up, they realized that they really should not have forgot to lock the door! And our friggin' cousins down in Florida let the Spaniards in. What the h*ll were they all thinkin' back then?

All them foreigners came in....stole our property, ate our crops, killed our wildlife, polluted out rivers and lakes, and worst of all....they brought in all those d*mn politicians!!!

Oh well....at least we got pretty beads and fire-water out of the deal!
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Old 11-08-2009, 03:54 PM   #25
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(snip)One of the first things I learned during the search of my ancestry was the difference between "Genealogy" and "Family History." Please understand that using DNA to search for individual ancestry requires male DNA -- females must get a brother or father/grandfather (a male cousin can also work, kinda sorta) to submit to the test.
That is not quite correct. In addition to tracing male lineage by means of Y-chromosome analysis, it is possible to trace the female line with mitochondrial DNA, and other things as well. Earlier this year, I read Trace Your Roots with DNA, which gives a good overview of the use of genetic testing in genealogical research, what you can and can't find out, etc. For example, it was analysis of mitochondrial DNA that settled the question of whether Neanderthals were a subspecies of Homo sapiens, or a different species altogether.

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Generally, the biggest surprise you might find from DNA testing is that women are capable of being impregnated by someone other than their legally designated husband -- and they sometimes keep it a secret. With Family History, of course, the risk is in finding the feared "horse thief" hiding in the bunch.(snip)
Such revelations can happen with documentary research too. Just this spring we found out that his marriage to my great grandmother wasn't my great grandfather's first , and that he parted company with his previous wife under circumstances not particularly creditable to him.
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Old 11-08-2009, 03:54 PM   #26
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Perhaps some people do take up genealogy out of ethnic pride (which I don't "get" any more than you do), it isn't the only reason. I'm curious to know something about my ancestors, even though after so many years it may not be possible to discover more than a name. Eventually, I will "hit a brick wall", and not be able to find out even that much from the surviving documents, so I'm glad that DNA testing offers another way to satisfy my curiosity about them.
I have been making light of this subject but, to be honest, it has been a very enjoyable endeavor. I have over fifty 1st cousins ranging in age from mid forties to late eighties. I have met each of the ones that were still living -- most of them were unknown to each other. I have a close relationship with quite a number of 2nd cousins and so on up the chain to two 6th cousins.

My "Family Tree," as per my research, has over 2,500 names. Sure it is "fun" to show your relationship to two Presidents or to the General who challenged Lincoln to a duel over Mary Todd or to movie stars but that gets old quickly. It is more interesting to have an Uncle who was the oldest member of the Corps of Discovery -- traveling the Lewis & Clark trail was much more interesting knowing that. I could go on -- Relationship to Queen Elizabeth, watching "Braveheart" with the knowledge that your ancestor was the "right hand man" (Protector) of Robert the Bruce, King of Scotland, and fought with William Wallace... and on and on.

And knowing what "Hillbilly" and "Redneck" really means. (William of Orange)
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Old 11-08-2009, 04:34 PM   #27
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My mother made me go to Bible School which I remember as learning little but having lots of fun at. Anyway, it's bothered me since I was little that the pictures of Adam, Eve, Jesus, etc. were all Caucasians when they either are from Africa or the Middle East. We need to revise all that work I've always thought. And, by the fact that we all accept these drawings of Caucasian figures when the subjects are either brown or olive skinned, that should tell us how deeply institutional racism is in our time. We need to change this IMHO.

Goonie: Have you not heard that nobody during those times had belly buttons? I know 'cause the pictures never lie.
I don't know Princess Orchidflower. I think it's only been relatively recent that that sort of historical accuracy about depictions of ancient events has even been thought of, and before it was, artists made no particular effort to depict the clothing, scenery etc, as they would have been at the time and place the events occurred. For example, here is a 15th Century Madonna & Child, in which the Virgin Mary is clothed more or less as a contemporary queen, rather than in the much more modest garments that would surely have been worn by a carpenter's wife in Roman-occupied Judea.

I've also seen pictures by Christian artists from India or the Far East, and they show people in Biblical scenes with Indian or Oriental-appearing features and clothing.
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Old 11-08-2009, 05:09 PM   #28
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We too are having great fun with genealogy, tracing our ancestors across north America. My research revealed why a great-grandmother was parked in a mental hospital -- it turned out to not be mental illness but a stroke. My thickest brick wall is the massacre of the Bevens (Bevins) family in 1787 in what is now West Virginia. Who knew history could be so interesting.

My husband has participated genealogy-DNA. Male DNA does a good job of documenting relationships. His male line, by oral history, left from Ireland to the USA but no one now knows just where they were in Ireland. As other males from his line participate he may be able to focus his research.

It is true that children may not be the biological offspring of the male on the birth certificate. When were discussing inherited conditions my OB once said, "We assume nothing. You can be certain of the mother, but not the father." Not all non-marital conceptions were the result of dalliances, before the availability of safe abortions often women who were raped gave birth to a child not of her husband. If the resulting offspring was female that would be difficult to find with a genealogy-DNA test but for males it is very evident. Consider for a moment the fact that Judaism looks to the female line in determining whether or not a child is Jewish - a very practical approach historically.
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Old 11-08-2009, 05:12 PM   #29
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I'm curious to know something about my ancestors . . .
Yep, I don't understand that either. Why the curiosity? I feel more "kinship" to people I've talked to for 5 minutes than I ever could for some long dead ancestor. And, especially after the genetic material has been diluted across a few generations, I'd be just as likely to share unique genetic traits with some strangers as with some of these ancestors.

But, I know I'm a distant outlier in this regard.
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Old 11-08-2009, 05:43 PM   #30
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I feel more "kinship" to people I've talked to for 5 minutes than I ever could for some long dead ancestor. And, especially after the genetic material has been diluted across a few generations, I'd be just as likely to share unique genetic traits with some strangers as with some of these ancestors.
Just the same, it is fun to imagine a "kinship" to long dead ancestors. For example, this guy in my "tree":

John Tyler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What an exciting time he lived in. Texas? Well, maybe.
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Old 11-08-2009, 06:40 PM   #31
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I'm curious to know something about my ancestors
Yep, I don't understand that either. Why the curiosity? I feel more "kinship" to people I've talked to for 5 minutes than I ever could for some long dead ancestor. And, especially after the genetic material has been diluted across a few generations, I'd be just as likely to share unique genetic traits with some strangers as with some of these ancestors.

But, I know I'm a distant outlier in this regard.
I didn't say I felt kinship with them. I would have to learn a vast deal more about history, and about any specific ancestor, than I am ever likely to do, to have any real idea what their lives were like, and whether we are "akin" in the sense I think you mean it. Nevertheless, I wonder...what were their names? where did they come from, and where did they go? what did they do for a living? There is also a puzzle-solving aspect to genealogy that I enjoy. I like to dig out some elusive document that reveals one of the answers of the above questions. I don't know why. I'm just inquisitive I guess.
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Old 11-08-2009, 07:10 PM   #32
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Family on both sides did a pretty good job of recording family history.

On Father's side we have a family homestead built in 1712 on the Brandywine River in PA. One of the American Revolution battles was fought on that property. They were Quakers who came over from Worcester, England, escaping religious persecution. Over many generations the family split and moved all over the country, and my great uncle documented the history for every generation. I'm 10th generation from this line. The homestead is no longer in the family.

On mother's side through her maternal great-grandfather - he came down from North Carolina and settled the land in central GA in 1856. Shortly thereafter he fought in the "war between the states", but still made it home with his sword. This land has been in the family ever since and my father still lives there. We are related to half the people in the nearby town. The family origins pre NC are believed to be Scotch-Irish.

So - plenty of "heritage" for me. I haven't really been that curious about my DNA as most of us in the family look like Northern Europeans.

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Old 11-08-2009, 07:13 PM   #33
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Oh well....at least we got pretty beads and fire-water out of the deal!
Not to mention horses!

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Old 11-08-2009, 07:22 PM   #34
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I do understand wanting to know more about one's ancestors. Even though I don't know much about my family beyond my grandparents, I do know that they instilled my parents, and hence myself, with a strong sense of how lucky I am to have had the opportunities and freedoms I have enjoyed in life. Every previous generation had to work much harder, overcome more obstacles, than I ever had to. I have been the beneficiary of their efforts and sacrifices to a very large extent and for that I will be eternally grateful. Not a day goes by that I don't wish my parents were here to share in my life and afford me the opportunity to thank them for the foundation they gave me.
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Old 11-08-2009, 07:36 PM   #35
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Uh, yeah but.....my ancestors were already here before that! Some of those idiots thought it would be 'cute' to let a few 'white folks' into the neighborhood. But when they sobered up, they realized that they really should not have forgot to lock the door! And our friggin' cousins down in Florida let the Spaniards in. What the h*ll were they all thinkin' back then?

All them foreigners came in....stole our property, ate our crops, killed our wildlife, polluted out rivers and lakes, and worst of all....they brought in all those d*mn politicians!!!

Oh well....at least we got pretty beads and fire-water out of the deal!
Yeah, this is exactly what I was referring to earlier about a "weak" claim to citizenship. I grew up in the Black Hills of South Dakota and have a deep sympathy for the Native Americans.

I have several Native American grandmothers. None in the past three centuries, however. My ancestors, on my Mother's side, were those fur traders fictionalized in the movie "Rose Marie."

From my notes in my Family History:
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It was not long before some of the men at the trading posts decided they would go inland and get the fur themselves. Unwilling to be told what they could and could not do, a new breed of Frenchman developed -- the coureurs de bois -- “Vagabonds of the forest” or “runners of the woods” (Pronounced koo RUR duh BWAH). ...

<a lot of not very nice things>

The coureurs de bois capture the imagination of all who read about them. They were a gay, devil-may-care lot, completely lacking in fear, singing their songs (which were sometimes sad but generally rollicking and wild). They were true sons of the wilderness, having a love for the woods much more real than any emotion of which the stoic Indian was capable. They were mercurial in the extreme -- sometimes kind and sometimes cruel, sometimes loyal and sometimes treacherous. They believed in countless superstitions. The northern lights were marionettes to them, and they were convinced that the skies lighted up and danced because they, the bold vagabonds, were filling the evening sky with their songs.
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Old 11-09-2009, 07:09 AM   #36
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RonBoyd: Your Tyler relative had 22 children and was highly educated? Horny and smart? I'm still reeling from the 22 children...whew.
My Grandfather was Cherokee, and we assume it's true as a few of us have American Indian features (high cheekbones, mild Indian noses, coal black hair on some of us).
Unfortunately, the poor Indians are the lowest form of humans in this country today and the most crapped on group there is by the government. Yeah, I know they allow them to have gambling now..but come on! For years they have been the "forgotten" group here with minimal efforts to help them. Handouts aren't my idea of improving the Indians lot.
My mother went thru South Dakota probably in the '60's, and saw the poverty of the American Indians first hand there; so she has donated money to the American Indian children's orphanages there for years and years and years.
I've promised her if I ever took in a child to raise or help that it would be an American Indian child.
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Old 11-09-2009, 07:50 AM   #37
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RonBoyd: Your Tyler relative had 22 children and was highly educated? Horny and smart? I'm still reeling from the 22 children...whew.
Yeah, but that was fairly typical of the Scots/Irish (an American term) in America. In fact, it was the basis for popular satire such as the Ma & Pa Kettle movie series.

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My Grandfather was Cherokee, and we assume it's true as a few of us have American Indian features (high cheekbones, mild Indian noses, coal black hair on some of us).
Unfortunately, the poor Indians are the lowest form of humans in this country today and the most crapped on group there is by the government.
Recall what I said earlier about the European, the Aborigine and the Native American being genetically identical (I forgot but should have added a group that stayed in India and are still there today).

Ain't it great how we humans can separate each other into "Us" and "Them" so easily... and irrationally.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:51 AM   #38
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Guess I need to meet myself some nice Scots/Irish guy then...ha!
Yeah, RonBoyd, I doubt if anyone denies that the American Indian has gotten a bad shake. Definitely that group has been put into the "Them" category by most Americans still. I found that out when I told some business associates that I was 1/4th Indian. Not a positive reaction at all...as if I could care about what they thought as I like being part Cherokee.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:58 AM   #39
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Ain't it great how we humans can separate each other into "Us" and "Them" so easily... and irrationally.
People fixate on what tribe they came from, the various supposed inheritied attributes of the many tribes, and take personal pride based on these attributes--then marvel at how it is that we irrationally separate ourselves into "us" and "them." We are a funny lot.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:31 AM   #40
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My mother went thru South Dakota probably in the '60's, and saw the poverty of the American Indians first hand there; so she has donated money to the American Indian children's orphanages there for years and years and years.
I've promised her if I ever took in a child to raise or help that it would be an American Indian child.
As some families have learned to their grief, to take in an American Indian child requires consent of the tribe to which their parents belonged. Oft there are nasty custody fights.

Tribes take pride in their culture, they are quite different. For example some are matrilineal, others patrilineal. When there is a 'mixed marriage' (different tribes) things can get complicated for the kids.

Native American descendancy is different than indicating that you are a Native American in the human resources world because there are some folks who claim status just for chuckles. If an applicant or an employee isn't actually a member of a recognized tribe then they must consider whether or not the community regards them as Native American. The Cherokee seem to welcome anyone who can prove Native American descendancy. One of the reasons why this can be important is that employers with facilities close to a reservation can have a policy of Indian preference. This exception to the EEO law was established to address the differential in the unemployment rates between Native Americans and others.
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