Join Early Retirement Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-25-2015, 04:46 PM   #181
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,465
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Hitter View Post
^ not what I said - given a fixed dollar contribution budget, DB plans are more efficient at providing income to retirees, for many reasons as one poster noted.
Ok, if that's the point you were making, I would agree.
__________________

__________________
MichaelB is offline  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-25-2015, 04:57 PM   #182
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Hitter View Post
^ not what I said - given a fixed dollar contribution budget, DB plans are more efficient at providing income to retirees, for many reasons as one poster noted.
You said this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Hitter View Post
...
there is no argument that DB plans provide the biggest bang for the buck in the retirement arena, from an employer cost perspective - they are way more efficient than DC plans
A zero match 401(k) program (where the employees pay the investment fees, which was standard in DH's case) isn't more bang for its buck and more efficient than funding DB plans?
__________________

__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline  
Old 03-25-2015, 11:26 PM   #183
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
growing_older's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,608
Quote:
Does anyone actually believe DB plans will make a comeback, or that Soc Sec benefits will be enhanced (aside from COL)?
I'm not expecting DB plans to make a comeback, but it wouldn't surprise me if there is eventually a government run mandatory savings program, with universal access to the TSP or something like it and required annuitization. Would likely be combined with big reductions in tax advantages for the current 401k, 403b, IRA and similar programs; RMD from Roths and general restrictions and means testing on these existing programs. I'm hoping for grandfather treatment if/when such a thing happens.
__________________
growing_older is online now  
Old 03-26-2015, 03:30 AM   #184
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by growing_older View Post
I'm not expecting DB plans to make a comeback, but it wouldn't surprise me if there is eventually a government run mandatory savings program, with universal access to the TSP or something like it and required annuitization. Would likely be combined with big reductions in tax advantages for the current 401k, 403b, IRA and similar programs; RMD from Roths and general restrictions and means testing on these existing programs. I'm hoping for grandfather treatment if/when such a thing happens.
Hopefully some new retirement savings options will be created that will help supplement the 401k. Give workers more options.


I imagine the government(IRS) would just leave the tax advantages of the 401k in place since they get the tax dollars either way.
__________________
purplesky is offline  
Old 03-26-2015, 03:52 AM   #185
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 461
This article is on Fortune.com. I doubt many here will agree with the writer but the Fidelity stats are kind of interesting if they are accurate. The writer is definitely pushing buttons and going for a reaction.
Not sure about his step 4 market data?

5 ridiculous steps to becoming a 401(k) millionaire - Fortune
Quote:
Fidelity's five ridiculous steps to becoming a 401(k) millionaire

A recent study from Fidelity examined the habits of 401(k) millionaires. Fortune takes a look at that study.

Fidelity Investments wants you to believe that saving $1 million in your 401(k) is easier than it looks. It ain’t.
[mod note - edited to comply with copyright regs]
__________________
purplesky is offline  
Old 03-26-2015, 04:31 AM   #186
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
bUU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,914
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
It's not solely one or the other?
It never is, but (from the standpoint of consideration of those folks who don't set out to sabotage themselves any more than the rest of us do) those folks that do set out to sabotage themselves don't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
WADR, at the same time there is also no evidence that all or even most low/middle class income people are in that circumstance despite making good choices but in my experience there is lots of anecdotal evidence that they make bad choices and those bad choices are a large part of the reason they have little wealth.
There is lots of anecdotal evidence that folks make choices as good as any of the rest of us and still have little wealth. Without objective evidence of an overwhelming preponderance one way or the other, and in the absence of diligently doing the work to fairly separate group "A" from group "B", we are honor-bound to give benefit of the doubt. How much are we willing to expend of ourselves to rationalize the actions and inactions that are only valid assuming that everyone poor is that way because they make worse choices than the rest of us? I suspect we'd all agree that it wouldn't be worth the "benefit" some folks would perceive in doing that differentiation. So we go forward looking at the problem straight on, setting assumptions based on anecdotal evidence aside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
How come it is that there are so much anecdotal evidence that low/middle income people who make poor financial decisions are in poor circumstances and low/middle income people who make good financial decisions are in good circumstances (millionaire next door types and people of modest means who die with multi-million estates) yet there are so few anecdotal examples of low/middle income people who make good financial decisions but are still in poor situations?
There isn't. That perception is simply a reflection of what information one may find themselves encountering based what information they choose to avail themselves of.

Here's one good anecdote for you of someone who made choices as good as any of us would have and still struggles to make ends meet:

https://vimeo.com/111668261
__________________
bUU is offline  
Old 03-26-2015, 04:46 AM   #187
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
bUU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,914
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
We often hear the pundits telling us that how much you spend is more important than how much you make in determining wealth, and that certainly seems to be true.
It is true, but what you are saying rationalizes actions and inactions, and does so in such a way that good people, making decisions as good as any of us, are to live lesser lives because those decisions didn't work out as well as they had for the rest of us. I know that wasn't your intent but that is the effective impact on this prototypical good person I've been referring to. Yes, life isn't fair, but we were moving as a society in a positive direction to reduce the incidence of that disparity. Why is it superior, in your mind, to stop moving in that positive direction and to reverse the improvements made (let's say, between 1960 and 1980)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
I wish I could differentiate between income and poor choices. I am sure it's not one or the other, and I'd be surprised if poor choices is simply "anecdotal." But I can't say with any certainty the relative influence of either.
That's actually a decent definition of anecdotal. As I alluded to earlier, I bet it isn't worth differentiating. I bet it would be better to just accept that there are good people and that making this better for them is worth whatever it would cost to figure out how many of them there are and/or working out a way to tell them apart from the bad people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkTinkerer View Post
I can't see dismissing the experiences as "just anecdotal" either.
All that is necessary to avoid that dismissal is to have objective evidence of the numbers of poor people who make worse decisions than the rest of us, versus those who don't. Until we've got that, what we know is limited to what we've chosen to expose ourselves to. I think those who have the best view are those who go out into the poor neighborhoods themselves and work with the people there every day. I've met several people like that and their insights are quite illuminating, and effectively dispel the perception that being poor means being wrong-headed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Several have talked about "the bottom."
Well, I see what you're saying, but isn't that just opening a path to manipulate the metric? If the bottom 10% of workers are skewing the results downward, let's redefine the metric so that they're no longer even counted. Lather, rinse, repeat. In addition to the switch from DB to DC, how much work has been done to exclude more and more and more from DC programs entirely? I'm not sure the two approaches can be separated from each other, and I'm not sure that the solutions won't require keeping the two aspects (the programs themselves, and the ability for every worker to adequately contribute into/participate in them) together.
__________________
bUU is offline  
Old 03-26-2015, 05:08 AM   #188
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
bUU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,914
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan View Post
I agree with you Pb, but Im afraid if we don't take it from them, they will be taking it from us to give to them. I don't see the government saying any time soon...."Go do yourself and society a favor and jump off a cliff. You should have saved more"
I am encouraged by your optimism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Hitter View Post
Sure - can you guys give me a few days?
Please don't forget to factor in the psychological impact of the various alternatives on employee actions under myriad economic situations. I think that's the big variable in this. Recession hits? You can take away benefits and people will grudgingly accept it, and when boom times return you can shower people with bonuses to make them ignore that you haven't restored what they had before. (That's not speculative - it happened to me! I didn't ignore, and pressed for restoration, but that only got me a pay raise, not a restoration of benefits.)

I think we're trying to come up with a mathematical model to solve this problem. That's a noble but pointless effort. This is a huge container ship we're on, piloted with two by fours stuck into the water instead of by azipods or rudders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
By the mid 00's DB plans had been phased out for most of corporate America, the exception being executive coverage.
As clear an indicator of which approach is better for workers as any.
__________________
bUU is offline  
Old 03-26-2015, 07:48 AM   #189
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vermont & Sarasota, FL
Posts: 16,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
.....Here's one good anecdote for you of someone who made choices as good as any of us would have and still struggles to make ends meet:

https://vimeo.com/111668261
Hardly a "good" anecdote. There is not nearly enough there to make an assessment. She obviously made decent money at some point in time as a factory worker but is it unclear whether or not she was living at or above her means or saved at all when she was making good money. After her work at Wrangler ended she got her GED and trained to be a CNA which are good moves. DS is a CNA and while he doesn't work in that field anymore I can tell you that finding employment is easy and there are ads for CNAs in the paper every day so it is hard to understand why she would have periods of unemployment unless there was no work in here geographic area and she was unwilling to move or travel. CNA is a tough job. It is unclear whether she owns or rents. She decided not to have health insurance and have a serious illness and owes hundreds of thousands, but from what she describes, I would think she would be eligible for Medicaid or at least some charity care. In any case, not nearly enough to make an assessment as to whether or not she makes good financial decisions and whether her circumstances are of her own devising or not.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
pb4uski is online now  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:06 AM   #190
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
bUU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,914
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
Hardly a "good" anecdote. There is not nearly enough there to make an assessment.
I see no merit in claiming that there isn't enough to make an assessment. There is more than enough information presented to conclude that despite having integrity and responsibility things haven't worked out for Glenda as they should because of things outside her control, things that if they happened to you or I may very well have led us into a comparable situation.

Furthermore, I think any anecdote either of us puts forward can be dismissed out of hand (which is why I said earlier that we shouldn't be considering anecdotes at all - yours or mine) because there is no objective metric for what constitutes a body of life decisions that are definitively and unequivocally poorer than the decisions that you and I have made.
__________________
bUU is offline  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:10 AM   #191
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vermont & Sarasota, FL
Posts: 16,439
I think you are wrong, but let's agree to disagree. You are clearly the minority view (which is fine... you are entitled to your opinion) and this whole dialogue is boring. I don't think there is anything that we could say that would change your view, and probably vice versa so any further debate is just a waste of time and keystrokes.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
pb4uski is online now  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:21 AM   #192
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,977
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
Well, I see what you're saying, but isn't that just opening a path to manipulate the metric? If the bottom 10% of workers are skewing the results downward, let's redefine the metric so that they're no longer even counted. Lather, rinse, repeat. In addition to the switch from DB to DC, how much work has been done to exclude more and more and more from DC programs entirely? I'm not sure the two approaches can be separated from each other, and I'm not sure that the solutions won't require keeping the two aspects (the programs themselves, and the ability for every worker to adequately contribute into/participate in them) together.
If you're going to push your personal agenda (again), be honest enough to not quote other members out of context. But this thread has run it's course, so preach on brother...
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:42 AM   #193
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Big_Hitter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: In the fairway
Posts: 4,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
But this thread has run it's course, so preach on brother...
in before porky!
__________________
Swing hard, look up
Big_Hitter is online now  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:53 AM   #194
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
We can all disagree without being disagreeable ..
Cannot...
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline  
Old 03-26-2015, 10:19 AM   #195
Moderator
Ronstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: A little ways southwest of Chicago
Posts: 9,353
Thanks for the informative discussion.

[/QUOTE]
__________________

__________________
Ronstar is online now  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help me decide 401-K vs. Roth 401-K wanaberetiree FIRE and Money 22 07-14-2013 03:10 PM
Tranfering 401(k) to IRA back to 401(k) dennisbaker Young Dreamers 14 09-23-2009 01:28 PM
Not all investments make $$$~Success/Failure $$ museum mickeyd Other topics 2 12-09-2005 01:58 AM
Another FIRE Failure? REWahoo Life after FIRE 13 09-18-2005 09:14 AM
Too early to judge success/failure of ER? parnass FIRE and Money 7 02-20-2005 11:26 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:46 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.