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Old 03-04-2014, 11:15 AM   #101
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It's time to let y'all know about my effort with reviving the 2nd pair of vintage speakers: the Sansui SP-3500. Here's an image linked from the Web. I wish mine looked that good. The grill work was hand-carved, and called Kumiko. Purists poo-pooh'ed this and say it causes diffraction. I like the style though. On audiokarma, a poster said that he worked at JBL at the time frame these Sansuis were produced (1968-1972), and knew that JBL designed these speakers for Sansui. Note that some JBLs used similar acoustic lenses like on these Sansuis.





These speakers are of about the same vintage as my already shown Pioneer CS-88, but of a bit higher class. It's a 4-way bass reflex, with a 14" woofer, two 4" paper-cone low-midranges, a high-midrange horn with an acoustic lens, and two horn tweeters.

It's the tweeters of one speaker that were blown-out. I took off the high-frequency assembly to change them. See photo below.





When I looked for replacements on eBay, there was not any offered (there are now). So, I had to get an earlier version of these horn tweeters. See photo below. The original tweeters were die-cast and looked higher-quality than the earlier versions.




I frequency-swept the replacement horns, and found them to be OK. They dropped 10dB between 15KHz and 20KHz, but I cannot hear above 13KHz anyway, and seriously doubt if I could hear that high even when younger. The dispersion did not look too bad either, and got to +-60-deg off-axis while the newer Vifa tweeters I put in the CS-88 fell off drastically at that angle.

And hey, my hearing is still good enough to know that these speakers were lacking in the high end of the range.



Here's the measured response of the replacement tweeters along with the rest of the speaker (the lower 3-way part of the 4-way). I was pleased to see that these tweeters going to blend in nicely, if the crossover still worked. And of course it did, else I would not be able to get the 3 out of 4 ways to work that nicely at the lower frequencies.


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Old 03-04-2014, 11:22 PM   #102
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Here's the inside of the Sansui SP-3500.





Here's the close up photo of the crossover. It has two rotary switches to allow plus/minus tweaking of the midrange and tweeter outputs.






The positions of the switches are shown below. By measurements I found that the "Natural" positions provided the flat response, and the listening tests proved that it was also the best.





On the other hand, the Pioneer speakers use L-pads to provide variable adjustments. I found that I had to crank the midrange to max, and the tweeter knob to slightly above the "Normal" position to get a flat response. Could it be that the midrange drivers have gotten weak? What could be the reason for that? The magnets lost their strength?

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Old 03-04-2014, 11:33 PM   #103
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So, other than replacing the blown tweeters of both Pioneer speakers and that of one of the Sansui's plus the tweeter's L-pads of both Pioneer's, I was able to bring them back to life for around $70. I did not even have to replace any of the 40+ year-old crossover caps. I did buy some replacements, but they look cheap and flimsy, so I decided to leave the original ones in there. Besides, my sweep measurements showed that the crossovers still worked fine.

I think I have found another big reason that people got dissatisfied with these old speakers: the L-pads and the rotary switches got scratchy due to oxidation and made intermittent contact if at all. When electrical contact is not made, you lose the midrange or the tweeter output, and of course the speaker would sound muddy and horrible.

A can of expensive "DeoxIT" spray fixed up that problem with very little fuss. Nowadays, manufacturers don't even put these manual switches in, and that eliminates a lot of problems.
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:51 PM   #104
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Then, I have them hooked up indoors for the real listening test. I also compared them with a couple of smaller bookshelf JBLs. I also frequency-swept them all indoors, and found that the responses varied quite a bit from outdoors. I also found that my smaller and newer JBLs were surprisingly flat. It's just that they cannot handle the power when the volume is cranked up even though my amplifier output of 70W/ch is supposedly within the speaker rating.

As I now pay more attention to do more critical listening, I have found that once these different speakers have been tuned to a flat response, they sound somewhat similar to my ears. It's only when the volume is turned up and the smaller speakers start to have some distortions that they reveal themselves. After all, a 6-1/2' woofer cannot compete with a 14' one.

Another reason my smaller JBLs could not compete with the vintage speakers: the latters have so much higher efficiency or sensitivity. By measurements, I have found that these old speakers have sensitivity of at least 8 dB higher than the JBLs, which are spec'ed at 88 dB, driven with 2.86Vrms and measured at 1m. That made these speaker SPL at 96dB minimum. One Web site said 99dB for the Sansuis, but I do not think mine are that high.

A difference of 8 dB means that the smaller JBL speakers must be driven with 6.3X more power to deliver the same loudness. As these big speakers show no distortion when the red clipping LEDs start to flash on my 70W/ch amplifier (it was VERY LOUD), it means that the smaller JBLs must take 440W to have the same loudness. No way! Their woofer cones already look like they are popping out of the basket at way less than my amplifier can put out, even though the rating is 80W on one speaker and 125W on the other.

For normal listening with these vintage speakers, my amplifier generally indicates around 1W. Turn it up to 5W, and my wife starts to complain!

And by the way, both my wife and my son agreed in blind A/B tests that the Sansuis sounded better than the Pioneers, which were better than the smaller JBLs. That was also my opinion.
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Old 03-05-2014, 02:54 PM   #105
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Nice save on those speakers, through the haze of time I remember my 88s rocking rather well. Still have a pair of Technics from the 70s in the garage. The tweeter l-pads need cleaning and boys punched in several of the dust caps when they were rug rats but still good units.

I ordered a Sansui 919 integrated amp and tuner, Dual 1229, and Pioneer 88s during my first Vietnam cruise… while deployed on carrier qual shakedown for the next cruise someone decided to help themselves. So during that cruise (evacuation of Saigon), ordered Marantz 2270. Dual 1229, and 4 Technics 2200s, went for the wall of sound.

Last year while working in northern Japan I ran across some vintage Mitsubishi speakers in a “Hard-off” recycle shop I would have liked to bring home. There was quite a few vintage items I should have grabbed but was leery of shipping charges… transformers on old tube stuff are freakin’ heavy.

2S-305¡ÊR305¡Ë DIATONE HiFi-Do McIntosh/JBL/audio-technica/Jeff Rowland/Accuphase 13-75095-91296-00

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Old 03-13-2014, 10:51 PM   #106
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Yes, the little bit of money I spent on reviving these speakers was well-spent. Not only that I now have two nice-sounding pairs of speakers, I have learned quite a bit more about acoustics, something I wanted to experiment with, but put aside for almost 40 years.

I am all done with my 2 pairs of vintage speakers and have been listening to them for the last week. I have just rubbed a coat of varnish on them, and the wood looks so good.

So, what's next? Ever since I redeveloped this speaker mania, I have been looking at craigslist. Just saw a pair of Vandersteen, and another pair of Dunlavy offered at reasonable prices. I am so tempted to add these to my collection, but I am not single and my wife's indulgence only goes so far.

So, where is everybody? I hope you are all experimenting with speaker placement and doing a lot of listening tests.
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Old 03-13-2014, 10:54 PM   #107
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Im reading that book that was previously mentioned...
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Old 03-14-2014, 09:42 AM   #108
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Me too! I've been reading the Get Better Sound book and experimenting with some of his suggestions. So far it's very promising
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Old 03-14-2014, 01:55 PM   #109
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So, where is everybody? I hope you are all experimenting with speaker placement and doing a lot of listening tests.
Been there and done that. Even built my own acoustic wall panels (your next project? ). It was fun while going through it. At the end, I settled on good enough sound (to my wife's delight) instead of trying to get that last 1% right.

DW blind tested a lot of my experiments. It must have felt like a torture to her at times.
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Old 03-14-2014, 03:22 PM   #110
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Been there and done that. Even built my own acoustic wall panels (your next project? ). It was fun while going through it...
I do not think I will go that far. My aural acuity is not that great, and I have found out with the recent experiments that while a microphone can "see" all kinds of aberration, I can only discern something that deviates by 3 to 5 dB.

The subject of stereo imaging was brought up before. My experience is that it depends a lot on the source material. For simple material like soundtracks of a movie, even the built-in speakers of my big TV provide good imaging, for conversation anyway. But when it comes to big orchestra sounds, I admit that I cannot tell the "position" of each instrument group. There are just too many instruments! Would I be able to tell with better speakers and surrounding? Somehow I doubt it. And do we know how these recordings were made anyway?

I will continue to learn to listen to music in a more critical way. I am usually not too discriminatory in my listening. I often listen when reading, and not being in the "correct" sweet spot, and not devoting my full attention. I said earlier that I am not a true audiophile, and I meant it. But I am willing to experiment to learn more.

Again, so far I can "see" more with a microphone than with my ears!
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Old 03-14-2014, 03:44 PM   #111
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I often listen when reading, and not being in the "correct" sweet spot, and not devoting my full attention.
I find that a good music system at audiophile level will not let me read something while listening to my favorite music. Music becomes too disruptive (in a good way) to continue what I am doing (be it reading, watching TV (golf, whatelse?), etc). And once I start listening to music, I can't easily stop. And such music system even makes poor music sound much better .
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Old 03-14-2014, 04:27 PM   #112
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I find that a good music system at audiophile level will not let me read something while listening to my favorite music. Music becomes too disruptive (in a good way) to continue what I am doing (be it reading, watching TV (golf, whatelse?), etc). And once I start listening to music, I can't easily stop. And such music system even makes poor music sound much better .
+1. And then you have to play all your other favorite stuff to see how that sounds...

As far as imaging, it may be easier to hear on something a little sparser than orchestral works. One that really popped for me was a Muddy Waters LP that was a popular demo disk back in the day. Not much going on in it, but you could hear the room very nicely. With sound like that it is easy to imagine the wall behind the speakers is an acoustically transparent curtain and the musicians are playing just behind it, in a real space. That's what I tended to pay for, more than specs.
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Old 03-14-2014, 04:44 PM   #113
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As far as imaging, it may be easier to hear on something a little sparser than orchestral works. One that really popped for me was a Muddy Waters LP that was a popular demo disk back in the day. Not much going on in it, but you could hear the room very nicely. With sound like that it is easy to imagine the wall behind the speakers is an acoustically transparent curtain and the musicians are playing just behind it, in a real space. That's what I tended to pay for, more than specs.
Reminds me of Hoagy's Two Sleep People - If I close my eyes, I can swear he was singing 10 feet in front of me. There are other (old) recordings which give "you are there" experience.
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Old 03-14-2014, 05:56 PM   #114
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I need to read all the posts in this thread, as I'm wondering whether anyone has suggested a nice pair of speakers for, say, under $1,000 or $750 for the pair. Or is that being too stingy? I just read this article, 'A Note About Loudspeakers,' that reads in pertinent part:

“The loudspeaker will determine how your music system sounds. Not the amplifier, not the preamplifier, not the CD or DVD player, nothing but the loudspeaker. Speakers, even the finest, are far less accurate in terms of output compared to input than any of those other components. The speaker will be invariably the weakest link in the chain, the link that limits the quality of sound reproduction.”

Which in turn comes from this blog: 'A Brief Guide to Audio for the Skeptical Consumer'
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Old 03-14-2014, 06:12 PM   #115
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“The loudspeaker will determine how your music system sounds. Not the amplifier, not the preamplifier, not the CD or DVD player, nothing but the loudspeaker. Speakers, even the finest, are far less accurate in terms of output compared to input than any of those other components. The speaker will be invariably the weakest link in the chain, the link that limits the quality of sound reproduction.”

Which in turn comes from this blog: 'A Brief Guide to Audio for the Skeptical Consumer'
I can't agree with that. That's just pure rubbish.
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Old 03-14-2014, 08:33 PM   #116
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Quote:
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I often listen when reading, and not being in the "correct" sweet spot, and not devoting my full attention.
I find that a good music system at audiophile level will not let me read something while listening to my favorite music. Music becomes too disruptive (in a good way) to continue what I am doing (be it reading, watching TV (golf, whatelse?), etc).
Agreed. I love music so much, I really can't have it on in the background when I'm doing something else. If it is great music, I must give it my full attention. If it isn't great music, I don't want it on at all!



Quote:
And once I start listening to music, I can't easily stop.
I find I really need to be 'in the mood', or else I don't really want to sit and listen - it's too passive. But if you go to a live convert, you put yourself in the mood.


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... With sound like that it is easy to imagine the wall behind the speakers is an acoustically transparent curtain and the musicians are playing just behind it, in a real space. That's what I tended to pay for, more than specs.
Yes, it really depends on the recording. I really lean towards the simple two mics set up, live recording, no overdubs. You get that "you are there" feeling.

I don't recall if it was way back in this thread, or another, but we started to talk about our favorite 'recordings' - stuff that is great musically and really well recorded. I'd need to go through my collection, but off the top of my head, several Doc Watson recordings fit that bill. Just clean and simple, and you are there. Same with a couple Norman Blake albums/CDs. In that same vein, I have an LP that does not have a title, just a long list of artists (including Norman Blake), and that is phenomenal in every way. The album and later CD are both out of print, and appear to be collector's items by the prices I see.

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Norman Blake / Tut Taylor / Sam Bush / Butch Robbins / Vassar Clements / David Holland / Jethro Burns

Norman Blake/Tut Taylor/Sam Bush/Butch Robins/Vassar Clements/David Holland/Jethro Burns - Norman Blake,Jethro Burns,Sam Bush,Vassar Clements,Dave Holland,Butch Robins,Tut Taylor | Songs, Reviews, Credits, Awards | AllMusic


Norman Blake / Jethro Burns / Sam Bush / Vassar Clements / Dave Holland / Butch Robins / Tut Taylor

That's quite a mix, Dave Holland is a jazz bassist - played with Miles, and Abecrombie and DeJonette. Jethro Burns of "Homer and Jethro", but few realize he was probably the best mandolinist of his time, he could play any style. I used to regularly go out to hear his son Johnny, who played awesome electric guitar in some country-rock bands in Chicago, and Jethro would occasionally sit in with him and Steve Goodman (Jethro is on a few cuts of Goodman's 'Anthology' album). Jethro and his family lived in the near North Suburbs of Chicago. edit/add: Jethro and Chet Atkins (another great guitarist) were Brothers-in-Law, they married twin sisters.

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Old 03-14-2014, 08:41 PM   #117
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Lots of things matter and affect your system sound. Your source material is right up there at the top.

Speakers are my favorite component.
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Old 03-14-2014, 09:15 PM   #118
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I need to read all the posts in this thread, as I'm wondering whether anyone has suggested a nice pair of speakers for, say, under $1,000 or $750 for the pair. Or is that being too stingy? I just read this article, 'A Note About Loudspeakers,' that reads in pertinent part:

“The loudspeaker will determine how your music system sounds. Not the amplifier, not the preamplifier, not the CD or DVD player, nothing but the loudspeaker. Speakers, even the finest, are far less accurate in terms of output compared to input than any of those other components. The speaker will be invariably the weakest link in the chain, the link that limits the quality of sound reproduction.”

Which in turn comes from this blog: 'A Brief Guide to Audio for the Skeptical Consumer'
I agree with the article. In the early 70s when I bought my system the rule of thumb was 35 to 40% of the purchase price should go to speakers. I have a pair of McIntosh ML-1Cs and They sound as good or better than anything else I've heard. They can usually be found for a decent price on ebay. They are a bit heavy at 70 lbs each but they are very good 5 way systems.
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Old 03-14-2014, 10:00 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Birdie Num Nums View Post
I need to read all the posts in this thread, as I'm wondering whether anyone has suggested a nice pair of speakers for, say, under $1,000 or $750 for the pair. Or is that being too stingy? I just read this article, 'A Note About Loudspeakers,' that reads in pertinent part:

“The loudspeaker will determine how your music system sounds. Not the amplifier, not the preamplifier, not the CD or DVD player, nothing but the loudspeaker. Speakers, even the finest, are far less accurate in terms of output compared to input than any of those other components. The speaker will be invariably the weakest link in the chain, the link that limits the quality of sound reproduction.”

Which in turn comes from this blog: 'A Brief Guide to Audio for the Skeptical Consumer'
I tend to agree with this. A few hundred bucks will get you a modern amp with distortion so low that is way below audible detection. Same with CD players. The performance of all these is measurable and quantifiable. Speakers are however the most complex part. Even I agree that the frequency response of a speaker does not tell the whole story. Just the radiation pattern interacting with the surrounding would make them different. The problem for me is to learn to detect and differentiate between them. That is hard, as I described earlier. Once I have tuned up my 3 best pairs of speakers (none are true audiophile quality) so that their responses are flat, I cannot tell them apart that easily.

By the way, I have just listened to a variety of source programs, from Dire Straits to Jazz music like Diana Krall and Madeleine Peyroux. The imaging of my speakers wasn't bad, but then what do I know? By the way, I listened carefully to an old recording of "Summertime" by Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzerald, and boy was it good!

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I need to read all the posts in this thread, as I'm wondering whether anyone has suggested a nice pair of speakers for, say, under $1,000 or $750 for the pair. Or is that being too stingy?...
As mentioned earlier, I recently saw a pair of Vandersteen's and another pair of Dunlavy's offered on the local craigslist for $750 each. Of course one must check these out carefully to make sure all drivers are still working, particularly the tweeters.

For new purchases, I think one can get a decent pair of JBLs like L890 or something equivalent from Polk for around $1200-1500.

PS. Wow, Amazon has the L890 for $800/pair free shipping. Darn, these would look good in my bedroom, but will my wife agree?
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Old 03-14-2014, 10:33 PM   #120
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...I have a pair of McIntosh ML-1Cs and They sound as good or better than anything else I've heard. They can usually be found for a decent price on ebay. They are a bit heavy at 70 lbs each but they are very good 5 way systems.
Is it really a 4-way? I saw photos with it with 4 drivers. Looks like it is from the same era as my vintage speakers. Nowadays, speaker makers rarely go above 3-way because aligning the phase of the drivers becomes too tough. Still, I am a sucker for the woodsy cabinets. The modern look of black speakers is so bland. They do make tall column speakers with wood (or is it simulated wood). That would be my preference if I get a pair.
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