bbbamI
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
I've said it before and I'll say it again...after I had my first pap, nothing seems too personal to me....
In the meantime, a good use for race data in the census IMO, would be to determine how close we are to race-neutrality, and which direction we are going. Are we getting closer to it or further away? To me, refusing to provide racial data is a sort of denial. It's claiming "as a society, we've already arrived, racism has been completely eliminated, so we don't have to talk about it or do anything about it any more". I can take you to a bus stop not two blocks from my house and prove that ain't true.
There are some health issues that affect specific races ...
Description: Canavan disease (CD), which primarily affects children of eastern and central European Jewish (Ashkenazi) descent, is an inherited neurological disorder in which the brain deteriorates.
They all look alike to me.And, why no breakdown of 'white'? A Serb is the same as a Croatian as a German as a Ukrainian?
I'm not saying you are wrong, in fact I think you are right or anyway closer to right than would have been the case twenty or thirty or forty years ago. But how can your assertion be backed up with any kind of valid statistical analysis unless race data is gathered along with economic data? How would it be possible, for example, to tell that poor blacks aren't any worse off than poor whites, or that upper-income blacks are more similar to upper income whites than to lower income blacks, or that a higher proportion of blacks graduate from college now than in the past, or earn above median incomes, without any racial data? Or if those statements I just made aren't true, how could anyone tell if there is no race data? And the same goes for other ethnic groups as well.Yes, I think in many respects we have arrived. There are absolutely no more legal barriers or restrictions based on race. The only place current laws mention race is in the very unfortunate racial references in some programs that are only serving to perpetuate racism.
Now, that's not to say that there are no bigots and racists out there. It appears to me that white racists are, to a large degree, older people, so that problem may be on its way out. I don't know if the same situation (more racial tolerance and "color blindness" among the young than among the old) exists in black communities, I think perhaps it does not. If true, that's unfortunate, and will set us back decades.
Our big cultural "divide" now is along the wealth axis, not among racial groups. Poor black people have fewer opportunities almost exclusively because they are poor, not because they are black. If we can concentrate on the right problem and not get distracted by skin tone, we'll be on the right track.
I'm not following you, at least as it relates to the census count (which is the topic after all).
-ERD50
Good point--how do we know there's been progress without metrics? Two observations:. . . But how can your assertion be backed up with any kind of valid statistical analysis unless race data is gathered along with economic data?
What specifically didn't you follow? I will endeavor to explain more clearly.
But how can your assertion be backed up with any kind of valid statistical analysis unless race data is gathered along with economic data? How would it be possible, for example, to tell that poor blacks aren't any worse off than poor whites ...
this was directed to me (darn 'no embedded quoting' option!):What specifically didn't you follow? I will endeavor to explain more clearly.
I didn't know there weren't economic questions on the form, because I haven't opened my questionnaire yet. (Having read here on the board that the directions are (1) provide answers to the questions as of April 1, and (2) mail the completed form TODAY, ISTM the only way to comply with both is not to open the envelope for another 10 days. And I'm not going to go look at the envelope again to see if it says "Open Immediately" on the outside, because if it does the insoluble dilemma might cause my brain to explode.) So anyway, I didn't know there were no economic questions in the census form, and that's where I was missing your point. If there is a long questionnaire that only some households fill out as there was in 2000, I would imagine the economic questions are in there, but if not, I'm at a loss. The census data is also used for defining Congressional districts and possibly the race data would also have some applicability there. I have a vague recollection that there were some Supreme Court decisions wrt racial discrimination by gerrymandering The race data might be needed to demonstrate compliance with the Court's decision.Let me use your next post as a springboard to answer:
But how can your assertion be backed up with any kind of valid statistical analysis unless race data is gathered along with economic data? How would it be possible, for example, to tell that poor blacks aren't any worse off than poor whites...
My form has no questions regarding economic situation (other than a general housing question - own w/mortgage, own free& clear, rent, pay no rent - no $ figures).
So this is why I don't follow you. It does not tie economic data to 'race' (whatever that means anyhow, but that's another story?).
I agree it doesn't make much sense to have one ethnic group defined very broadly while another one is divided into many subsets. I have no idea how it was determined which groups would get a checkbox on the form, but I would guess that when the data gets back to HQ, there will be considerable lumping-together of subsets into broader categories. I also think it would make sense for "declines to state" to be one of the choices under Race. I think a count of people who don't wish to answer would make the data more accurate on the whole than if people lie or make up answers. It would still probably be possible to estimate the ethnic makeup of the population as a whole, and to lay out Congressional districts fairly, and if the number of Americans who don't identify themselves racially rises over time, that might also be an indicator of movement in the direction of race-neutrality.Plus, as we said before, why aren't these detailed subsets of whites listed - perhaps certain subsets of whites are in the same economic category as some of these other subsets, but we would never know since they are all lumped together? I guess that is what gives me the feeling that the form itself is discriminatory. Not in a "I want to jump up and down and turn red and stomp my feet" kind of way, but in a "that sure seems odd, is this really what we should be doing?" kind of way.
-ERD50
How would you gather the metrics then? Make the census strictly a head-count and then have some other body (university?) get the details on a statistically valid sample that could be extrapolated for the entire population? That might work...Good point--how do we know there's been progress without metrics? Two observations:
1. I'd much prefer that the racial questioning not be done by the government. Let the Serbs and Croats tally by ethnicity, every citizen in the US, as far as the government is concerned, is an American. Period.
Even assuming for purposes of discussion that poverty is in fact the mainl problem and race an insignificant factor, I think it's possible that, due to cultural differences between ethnic groups, the same government program might for example be effective in helping members of group A escape poverty, have no effect either way on members of group B, and be a hindrance to people in group C; poverty in group D might come from different historical causes, requiring different remedies, than poverty in group E; a program might be presented in such a way that people in group F avail themselves of it and benefit, while people in group G don't, and so on. It is analogous in a way to the medical tests that are now being developed can tell by the presence or absence of a gene marker whether a medication will be effective for a particular patient. But I think the only way to tell one way or the other is to collect data including race, along with other information.2. Do these stats on race and economics tell us much useful? Blacks are poorer than whites, in general. Does that give us information that is useful? I'm much more interested in the overall distribution of income and how to give poor people an opportunity to improve their lot. Whether they are black, white, brown, etc--how does that helps us with the underlying issue of poverty?
How would you gather the metrics then? Make the census strictly a head-count and then have some other body (university?) get the details on a statistically valid sample that could be extrapolated for the entire population? That might work...
Even assuming for purposes of discussion that poverty is in fact the mainl problem and race an insignificant factor, I think it's possible that, due to cultural differences between ethnic groups, the same government program might for example be effective in helping members of group A escape poverty, have no effect either way on members of group B, and be a hindrance to people in group C; poverty in group D might come from different historical causes, requiring different remedies, than poverty in group E; a program might be presented in such a way that people in group F avail themselves of it and benefit, while people in group G don't, and so on. It is analogous in a way to the medical tests that are now being developed can tell by the presence or absence of a gene marker whether a medication will be effective for a particular patient. But I think the only way to tell one way or the other is to collect data including race, along with other information.
But as ERD has pointed out, the census may not actually be gathering the data necessary to do this sort of analysis, in which case we'll be doing everything by guess and by golly for the next ten years.
I didn't know there weren't economic questions on the form, because I haven't opened my questionnaire yet. (Having read here on the board that the directions are (1) provide answers to the questions as of April 1, and (2) mail the completed form TODAY, ISTM the only way to comply with both is not to open the envelope for another 10 days. And I'm not going to go look at the envelope again to see if it says "Open Immediately" on the outside, because if it does the insoluble dilemma might cause my brain to explode.)
I have a vague recollection that there were some Supreme Court decisions wrt racial discrimination by gerrymandering The race data might be needed to demonstrate compliance with the Court's decision.
and if the number of Americans who don't identify themselves racially rises over time, that might also be an indicator of movement in the direction of race-neutrality.
I want embedding too! I can fake it using the multi-quote button, but I wish it was just automatic.
Population count and location are needed to draw congressional districts – for local, state and national governments.The census data is also used for defining Congressional districts and possibly the race data would also have some applicability there. I have a vague recollection that there were some Supreme Court decisions wrt racial discrimination by gerrymanderingThe race data might be needed to demonstrate compliance with the Court's decision.
They do (it does?) – which is why they dropped the long form. The census bureau is continually doing surveys and projections. This is just one – albeit an unusually big one...The census bureau gets a lot of information in other ways
Let's put aside real-world political considerations for a moment. Wouldn't it be great if congressional districts were constructed using some completely objective method? Maybe based on MGRS grid-squares or other means that simply attempts to equalize the populations in each district while striving for optimum "compactness." It would take all the politics and gerrymandering out of the equation.That's a possibility - in my view though, gerrymandering for political advantage is the problem - that can be done based on factors other than race that help keep the incumbent in power rather than serve the public. I'm a 'root problem' kind of guy - let's fix gerrymandering, and then all gerrymandering problems are fixed.
Let's put aside real-world political considerations for a moment. Wouldn't it be great if congressional districts were constructed using some completely objective method? Maybe based on MGRS grid-squares or other means that simply attempts to equalize the populations in each district while striving for optimum "compactness." It would take all the politics and gerrymandering out of the equation.
Okay, now back to the real world . . .
. . . but it could still happen accidentally if race is ignored in drawing district boundaries.
I don't think so, because back here in the real world, the geographic distribution of ethnic groups isn't random.
....
I think in the past instances of racial discrimination by gerrymandering this was done deliberately, but it could still happen accidentally if race is ignored in drawing district boundaries.
I want embedding too!
If it happens accidentally then I wouldn't call it gerrymandering--I'd call it "bad luck."
And, if we're culling the census data to assure various ethnic and "racial" groups are treated fairly (which, I guess, means that the expected election results will produce the "right" number of elected representatives for each group), then I think we're way off base. Are we doing the same thing for gays? For left-handed people? There's a big difference in expected lifetime income for short people vs tall ones--are we assuring short people get the "right" representation? How about something as fundamental as income level? Religion? I can assure you that atheists are not elected to public office in anything like their prevalence in the population. There are >>many<< other factors far more important than race, and the more we obsess about skin color, the more we slip into the "racial spoils" game. Nope--it's time to stop asking or answering any questions regarding race or ethnicity on the census or any other government form.
BTW, if, as expected, Republicans gain a lot of seats in the next election, they'll be in a position to lock that advantage in as they influence the once-a-decade redistricting process. What goes around comes around.
Whether they are black, white, brown, etc--how does that helps us with the underlying issue of poverty?
You got that right. Along with election rule reform, significant change in these two areas would enable major changes in our we govern ourselves. Not likely, but I would really enjoy discussing it with you over beers someday.We can invite some of the other active opinionators on this thread and have an enjoyable moment.Wouldn't it be great if congressional districts were constructed using some completely objective method?