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Old 11-23-2010, 09:47 PM   #221
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But none of the searches you list are the same, are they? Big difference between a metal detector and a grope session or body scanner that takes nudie pics AND has unknown health effects. Note the line in the amendment about "unreasonable" search and seizure. Our courts have determined the instances you mention to be reasonable. Our courts have made no such statement about what the TSA is doing. In fact, the head of the TSA admits they wouldn't pass the test of the 4th amendment.

Bottom line: I don't want the TSA taking away my 4th amendment rights in exchange for a dubious sense of safety provided by searches that aren't even accomplishing anything. I refer you back to the previously mentioned Ben Franklin quote.


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short answer....yes. it doesnt matter what your background is...'bad' people at one point or another had clean backgrounds....right?
Crappy logic here. Might as well arrest everyone now.

Have you seen the movie Minority Report? Perhaps you could be the head of the TSA's new future crimes division.

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you go through a metal detector to go to a basketball game
some kids go thru detectors and have bags searched when entering schools
your bags and such are inspected when entering amusement parks
your car can be searched for literally no reason at all by the police...PC is bullshit and can be created out of thin air...ask a cop
ever go to a major courthouse? what happens when you walk in those front doors


the list goes on.

these are all 'legal' activities. you also have a choice not to participate in these 'legal activities' if you so choose.
Personally I'm not a big fan of being searched in any of these examples, either. But, I don't feel the types of searches being conducted are unreasonable, and am confident they do not infringe upon my 4th amendment rights. As to manufacture of probable cause: Yes it happens, but it does have to stand up in a court.

I will pick on your amusement park example for a moment though. That is private property. They can pretty much do what they want as a condition of entrance, and I have no problem with that.
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Old 11-23-2010, 10:17 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Koolau View Post
I'm trying to decide whether it would be Adam or Jamie alluding to "the sh** hitting the fan(jet)."

Here's Adam regarding security checks - skip the first minute of the video as it's just applause:

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Old 11-23-2010, 10:41 PM   #223
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All this talk is interesting, and great fodder for conversation, but I'm flying over Denver as we speak (free Internet on the airplane today, don't ya know), from JFK. No scoping, no groping going on there. Flew from SFO to JFK on Sunday...nope, none there either. Just the regular old metal detector.

I prefer safety over turning to confetti, that's for sure, but if the only way is scope n grope, then I'm pretty sure a lot of planes out of JFK were unsafe today.

Just sayin'

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Old 11-23-2010, 11:21 PM   #224
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I was on an airplane 42 weeks last year; none of them blew up, had to land enroute because of an onboard threat, or were escorted to the gate by a squadron of F-15's. For all the grief the TSA is taking over this issue, we haven't had another tragedy since 2001... and the civil libertarians are just as free not to fly as to become indignant about being searched before doing so, I don't see anything in the Constitution about airplanes...

Sure, the searches are a pain in the butt, and TSA may be a bit of security theater, but until we institute terrorist profiling techniques over political correctness, we don't stand a chance of seeing things improve. Pre-flight security isn't going away, and the same folks who are screaming about being searched are preventing us from making any headway in the fight against an enemy who has figured out how to turn our civil liberties against us.

Anyone who buys an airline ticket today does so knowing full well that they are going to be screened in some method before being allowed to board the flight; if you feel the x-rays are unsafe, take the pat-down. If you feel the pat-down is a violation of your personal space, take the x-ray. If you feel either method is too intrusive, don't enter into a contract for air travel; take another mode of transportation, FWIW I don't want you on the plane if you haven't been screened because you feel it's too much of an inconvenience or violates your self-serving religious beliefs.

We screen hundreds of millions of passengers every year, to make it work we have to have standards to do so; using the personnel the TSA has available. Could they be more professional or better trained? Certainly, but the same holds true for any professional or vocation. Methods and countermethods are going to continue to evolve; get used to it. This issue isn't going away because of public indignation, and is far from over.
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Old 11-24-2010, 07:06 AM   #225
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People with high-level federal security clearances, if they turn 'bad', are in a position to do a lot more damage in their professions than when traveling.
Thank you.

I could probably do more damage with an hour's worth of frank discussion with a reporter than any dozen terrorists you care to name. The chances of me doing so absent some kind of severe mental illness are nil, of course.
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Old 11-24-2010, 07:09 AM   #226
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I have dispatched letters to my elected officials, but I think the real way to make this change is to hit them where it hurts: the wallet. Airlines are HIGHLY sensitive to small changes in load factors (how much the average plane is filled with paying customers). If 10% of their customers decided to stop flying for a spell, it would be quite painful for the industry. I suspect that our bought and paid for elected officials would react quickly.

So skip one or more planned flights and write your usual airline telling them why.
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Old 11-24-2010, 07:41 AM   #227
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Worse Than Vietnam


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... Just as Al Qaeda planned, it empowers the narrative of terrorist recruiters — that America is at war with Islam. The would-be Times Square bomber said he was working to avenge the killing of Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan. And Major Nidal Hasan, who at Fort Hood perpetrated the biggest post-9/11 terrorist attack on American soil, was enraged by the Afghanistan and Iraq wars.

And how many anti-American jihadists has the war created on the battlefield itself? There’s no telling, but recent headlines suggest this admittedly impressionistic conclusion: We’re creating them faster than we’re killing them. And some of these enemies, unlike the Vietcong, could wind up killing Americans after the war is over — in South Asia, in the Middle East, in Europe, in America.
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It would mean convincing Americans that — sometimes, at least — we have to absorb terrorist attacks stoically, refraining from retaliation that brings large-scale blowback.

That’s a tough sell, because few things are more deeply engrained in human nature than the impulse to punish enemies. So maybe the message should be put like this: Could we please stop doing Al Qaeda’s work for it?
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:07 AM   #228
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I have dispatched letters to my elected officials, but I think the real way to make this change is to hit them where it hurts: the wallet. Airlines are HIGHLY sensitive to small changes in load factors (how much the average plane is filled with paying customers). If 10% of their customers decided to stop flying for a spell, it would be quite painful for the industry. I suspect that our bought and paid for elected officials would react quickly.

So skip one or more planned flights and write your usual airline telling them why.
Scanner roll out wasn't done in a way that would allow an analysis of passenger reaction. In cities like Chicago and NY, with multiple airports, a staggered implementation plan would have made it easier to measure changes in traffic.

The next best thing is to write the airlines. Our elected officials seem to be very sensitive to what their constituents business contributors needs are.
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:53 AM   #229
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A couple of years ago, the BBC demonstrated how to blow a hole 2 feet across in the hull of an airliner using two 3-ounce bottles of liquids (the professor doing the experiment didn't tell us what was in the bottles, for obvious reasons), and that was on the ground - no allowance for the further effects of depressurisation. I think that the aircraft would probably be lost if that happened at FL370, cf Pan Am flight 103.

Of course, that also demonstrates that the current liquid restrictions aren't much use. As others have noticed, we're always fighting the last battle. Underwear bomb? X-ray crotches. 330ml PET bottle with explosives? Limit people to 100ml.
I looked for the full article but could only find the summary video. As you can see, the bottle is not large.

BBC NEWS | UK | Detonation of liquid explosives

The full article, while not saying what chemicals were used, said they were all easily obtainable and the bomb could be put together by 3 or more bombers who each carried 3oz of liquids through security. On the 'safe' side they get together, buy a bottle of soda, empty it and assemble the bomb which one them takes on board and sets up with a simple method of detonation.
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Old 11-24-2010, 10:18 AM   #230
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I have dispatched letters to my elected officials, but I think the real way to make this change is to hit them where it hurts: the wallet. Airlines are HIGHLY sensitive to small changes in load factors (how much the average plane is filled with paying customers). If 10% of their customers decided to stop flying for a spell, it would be quite painful for the industry. I suspect that our bought and paid for elected officials would react quickly.

So skip one or more planned flights and write your usual airline telling them why.
So you advocate punishing private industry in response to a government policy?

Where's the "justice" in that?
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Old 11-24-2010, 10:24 AM   #231
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So you advocate punishing private industry in response to a government policy?

Where's the "justice" in that?
Private industry funds political campaigns. Elected officials respond to the wishes of their largest donors.
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Old 11-24-2010, 10:56 AM   #232
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Gotta go to the grocers and pick up some things – I may never return. A few final thoughts on this subject for those dedicated few still reading this thread:

The threat of turning an airplane into a weapon is real, must be deterred, and security is justified. The threat of killing a plane and its passengers is not the same; both the risk and need for deterrence should be measured on a different scale and more in line with similar risks elsewhere.

Homeland security and TSA are focusing intently on airline risk and security not because it represents greater risk but because 1) the threat is easier to articulate and 2) their security response is easier to implement. IOW, they are not focused on the greatest threats, they are focused on what they have the ability to implement and manage.

HLS and TSA are now part of the status quo. Their own continuity will be at the core of every analysis and program recommendation they make from now on.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:54 AM   #233
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They can feel me up all they want to at the airport...I'm remembering 9/11 and don't want to be turned into dust in seconds. Not fun but hey! it is what it is.
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:43 PM   #234
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HLS and TSA are now part of the status quo. Their own continuity will be at the core of every analysis and program recommendation they make from now on.
Yep. First instinct of every organism is survival, and a bureaucracy is an organism. And they're doing pretty well, because they manage to get people to believe that what they are doing will actually mitigate the risks addressed in the very next post:
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They can feel me up all they want to at the airport...I'm remembering 9/11 and don't want to be turned into dust in seconds. Not fun but hey! it is what it is.
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:25 PM   #235
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The full article, while not saying what chemicals were used, said they were all easily obtainable and the bomb could be put together by 3 or more bombers who each carried 3oz of liquids through security. On the 'safe' side they get together, buy a bottle of soda, empty it and assemble the bomb which one them takes on board and sets up with a simple method of detonation.
I don't think it needs to be this complicated (hint: gasoline).
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:07 PM   #236
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I don't think it needs to be this complicated (hint: gasoline).
I wondered that when the underpants bomber struck. 10 3-ounce bottles, each with gasoline - OK, 5 bottles, so as not to look suspicious - go to the bathroom, pour on floor or over oneself, strike match. By the time anyone can get the door open, there'll be 60kg of terrorist on fire too. Does an airliner carry enough extinguishing capacity?
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:08 PM   #237
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Ha Ha Ha...another non event created by the media. I just watched the 6PM news coverage in the Dallas area and the security checks went very smoothly and most of the people interviewed said they appreciated the security checks to make flying safe. So my conclusion is that once again a few people scream bloody murder about the security checks and in actuality the vast majority of the public are OK with things....another example of a perceived problem created by a few people with the media's help.
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:10 PM   #238
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Imagine that the airlines operated flights that are screened at different levels. You are able to choose a flight on which the passengers and crew (and associated service personel) were screened at different levels, say -- pre-1994, pre-9-11-2001, pre November 2010 (aka post 9-11), or post November 2010. Or pick your own level. Which would you choose?

Remember, the "other guys" get to pick, also.
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Old 11-25-2010, 04:31 PM   #239
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I wondered that when the underpants bomber struck. 10 3-ounce bottles, each with gasoline - OK, 5 bottles, so as not to look suspicious - go to the bathroom, pour on floor or over oneself, strike match. By the time anyone can get the door open, there'll be 60kg of terrorist on fire too. Does an airliner carry enough extinguishing capacity?
The pilot can take the plane to a certain altitude and the fire will go out on its own
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Old 11-25-2010, 05:31 PM   #240
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The pilot can take the plane to a certain altitude and the fire will go out on its own
Pressurized Cabin or not?
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