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Old 11-25-2010, 07:07 PM   #241
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Pressurized Cabin or not?
If the fuselage stays intact, that's up to the pilot. If it doesn't stay intact then the only way to control pressure is with altitude.

Entertaining topics for bored inquisitive submariners: Humans breathe oxygen on a partial pressure (Say, 110-130 out of 760 torr. That might be right but I don't remember the spec anymore.) Fire burns on a percentage of oxygen in the total atmospheric pressure.

Back when submarines had smoking lamps, a favorite trick of non-smoking officers of the deck was to keep the boat's oxygen pressure as low as possible while keeping the total pressure as high as possible. People could still breathe but cigarettes wouldn't stay lit.

One OOD got a little overenthusiastic with that tactic before a surfacing. O2 partial pressure was so low (but in spec) and total pressure was so high (over 950 torr) that when the bridge hatch was opened a huge rush of air exited the boat. Both O2 partial pressure and boat pressure dropped so rapidly around the control room (at the base of the bridge trunk) that the control party briefly lost consciousness.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:19 PM   #242
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The pilot can take the plane to a certain altitude and the fire will go out on its own
I think you've been watching too many movies.

If the aircraft is still pressurized - and a fire as described shouldn't cause a depressurization - climbing to a higher altitude won't put out a fire. Plus, there is no way any aircrew is going to climb to a higher altitude with a fire on board. They are going to be running checklists, declaring an emergency and looking for the nearest suitable runway to get that aircraft on the ground...because they need a change of underwear - stat!
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:36 PM   #243
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I think you've been watching too many movies.

If the aircraft is still pressurized - and a fire as described shouldn't cause a depressurization - climbing to a higher altitude won't put out a fire. Plus, there is no way any aircrew is going to climb to a higher altitude with a fire on board. They are going to be running checklists, declaring an emergency and looking for the nearest suitable runway to get that aircraft on the ground...because they need a change of underwear - stat!
Ronstar just didn't mention that the passengers would go out as well....
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:38 PM   #244
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It's facinating to think about how successful the terrorism movement is being. At the cost of a few bux and a few lives, they've succeeded in costing us Big Bux and many lives. And, more importantly, have us fighting amongst ourselves, influencing elections and political agenda, contributing to the slide of our economy and disrupting our lives. Ya gotta tip your hat to 'em. Smart cookies.

I'm sure my grandchildren (5, 8 and 9) will live in a much less pleasant world than I've enjoyed. And I'm watching it happen before my eyes.......
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:50 PM   #245
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I'm sure my grandchildren (5, 8 and 9) will live in a much less pleasant world than I've enjoyed. And I'm watching it happen before my eyes.......
I'm much less pessimistic. I'm not 'sure' of anything, but I believe that much like the threat of global nuclear annihilation from the Soviet Union, this too shall pass - or at least reduce substantially.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:56 PM   #246
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It's facinating to think about how successful the terrorism movement is being. At the cost of a few bux and a few lives, they've succeeded in costing us Big Bux and many lives. And, more importantly, have us fighting amongst ourselves, influencing elections and political agenda, contributing to the slide of our economy and disrupting our lives. Ya gotta tip your hat to 'em. Smart cookies.

I'm sure my grandchildren (5, 8 and 9) will live in a much less pleasant world than I've enjoyed. And I'm watching it happen before my eyes.......
I agree with absurd impact the terrorism movement has had in relationship to the expenditures. However, I'm not going to give the terrorist credit for being smart, actually they have been pretty dumb. Certainly the guys who got caught recently, shoe, underwear, Time Square etc. bombers are closer to being nominees for the Darwin awards, than to Hannibal Lector in the brain department.

I don't think the terrorist won, but rather we lost.

As for your grandchild I'm cautiously optimistic it will be better for them, because I think Churchill is right.
"The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives. "

Let's be thankful we are running out of alternatives.
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:03 PM   #247
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I'm much less pessimistic. I'm not 'sure' of anything, but I believe that much like the threat of global nuclear annihilation from the Soviet Union, this too shall pass - or at least reduce substantially.
I'm sure pulling for you to be right. But I admit I view the current societal attitudes, political climate and detiorating world environmental conditions as being capable of allowing those who would own us to do so over time like a slowly spreading cancer. I see it as much more of a threat than any of the cold war scenarios.

Back then, it was jumping under my desk at the elementary school during air raid practice. Today it's intrusive security checks at the airport. Jumping under my desk was easy and cheap. And there was a sense of community cohesiveness vs. a common threat.

Sigh..........

I had a great Thanksgiving day with my family. Great food, great discussion, and a terrific bottle of expensive port shared by the guys in front of the TV watching football. Even the sound of grandkids running around laughing and playing was good.

Happy Thanksgiving!
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:03 PM   #248
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I'm much less pessimistic. I'm not 'sure' of anything, but I believe that much like the threat of global nuclear annihilation from the Soviet Union, this too shall pass - or at least reduce substantially.
The "threat of global nuclear annihilation from the Soviet Union" may have gone away but the the government resources that defended against it and prepared to defend against it has not. Sure there has been some reduction but much of it is still there.

What government agency every went away? The tax on telephones that was implemented to pay for the Spanish American War it went away a couple of years ago. So how long will it take for the TSA to go away after it is no longer needed?
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:11 PM   #249
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I'm not going to give the terrorist credit for being smart, actually they have been pretty dumb. Certainly the guys who got caught recently, shoe, underwear, Time Square etc. bombers are closer to being nominees for the Darwin awards, than to Hannibal Lector in the brain department.
You're looking at the wrong people. Think of those who on the slimest of budgets recruited and directed those expendable "dummies." Each instance cost us Big Bux, diverted us from other activities, added to the separation between our warring factions and scrared us into actions we'd rather not take. And all it cost them was pocket change and a few cretins.......

Sometimes it seems like we're puppets on their string.
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:42 PM   #250
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I think you've been watching too many movies.

If the aircraft is still pressurized - and a fire as described shouldn't cause a depressurization - climbing to a higher altitude won't put out a fire. Plus, there is no way any aircrew is going to climb to a higher altitude with a fire on board. They are going to be running checklists, declaring an emergency and looking for the nearest suitable runway to get that aircraft on the ground...because they need a change of underwear - stat!
I heard it from a pilot, and I thought it seemed a little tough to pull off, but I didn't question him further on it. But I'll see him Saturday and I'll ask for details.
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What not to wear clothing at the airport
Old 11-25-2010, 10:14 PM   #251
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What not to wear clothing at the airport

What not to wear? Clothing a security line issue - Yahoo! Finance


Good grief...I gotta chuck my underwire bras, too?
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Old 11-25-2010, 10:17 PM   #252
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Yep. First instinct of every organism is survival, and a bureaucracy is an organism. And they're doing pretty well, because they manage to get people to believe that what they are doing will actually mitigate the risks addressed in the very next post:

Well, what should the government do then? You are saying that the screenings don't mitigate the risks, so then what should be done to mitigate the risks?
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Old 11-25-2010, 10:20 PM   #253
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With all this hassle, it sure looks like I got into RV traveling at the right time!
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Old 11-26-2010, 02:09 AM   #254
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Well, what should the government do then? You are saying that the screenings don't mitigate the risks, so then what should be done to mitigate the risks?
This has been asked and answered in many forums and news programs. No one wants to hear it, but by all accounts it's effective.

Simply adopt a system similar to that used by Israel. They use info from your passport, interviews, intelligence and (probably) gut feel. You could call it profiling, but that's a loaded word. I would call it "screening". If you Google it, you could find some details. The idea is that you screen the people instead of the stuff they bring onto the plane. (How will we ever screen for internal devices - give everyone a cavity search?)

TSA types say the USA is too big to do Israeli style screening. What a cop-out response. No, we couldn't start doing it tomorrow, but we could eventually - and we probably will if there is another significant, successful attack which can't be caught by our current "new and improved" methods. Are there "issues" with such tactics. In a word "yes". But the Israeli system has been very effective and is carried out in the most likely target in the world. I wouldn't say we've been very successful by the various methods we've evolved over the years (think, 9-11).

Another good thing about the Israeli "system" is that it can be modified very quickly. Scanning machines and pat-downs are a one-size-fits-all approach that probably work for many threats, but not for ones we haven't seen yet. (Again, think cavity devices). Once these methods fail, there's no easy fix - okay, I guess strip searches and cavity exams, but, sheeeesh!
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:52 AM   #255
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With all this hassle, it sure looks like I got into RV traveling at the right time!
Yes. Us too. The biggest problem we currently have with air travel, right now, is trying to decide what to do with all the miles we have built up in those silly Milage Programs.
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Old 11-26-2010, 07:48 AM   #256
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With all this hassle, it sure looks like I got into RV traveling at the right time!
Count me in. If all of this nonsense does not reduce or go away, I may be splurging on a much nicer camper than I otherwise would have when it comes time to buy a new one.
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Old 11-26-2010, 08:08 AM   #257
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Crappy logic here. Might as well arrest everyone now.

.................................................. .......

I will pick on your amusement park example for a moment though. That is private property. They can pretty much do what they want as a condition of entrance, and I have no problem with that.
No, that is not crappy logic. Check him just like you check everyone else. It only makes sense. Just like they should be checking congressmen when they fly commercial. Just like they should be checking TSA employees when they arrive for work (which I've seen first hand that they do not)

And as a far as I know, none of the airlines in the USA are government owned ...so I'm not sure where you're going with the comment on amusement parks?
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Old 11-26-2010, 11:50 AM   #258
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No, that is not crappy logic. Check him just like you check everyone else. It only makes sense. Just like they should be checking congressmen when they fly commercial. Just like they should be checking TSA employees when they arrive for work (which I've seen first hand that they do not)
Yes, it is crappy logic. You are stating that because some people go bad, all people might, and all people should have their rights impinged as a result of this possibility. IMO that fits the general definition of a hasty generalization:
Hasty generalization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 11-26-2010, 12:03 PM   #259
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And as a far as I know, none of the airlines in the USA are government owned ...so I'm not sure where you're going with the comment on amusement parks?
I apologize. Upon re-reading my answer I wasn't clear enough there. My point was that those other areas use metal detectors and bag searches. These are a much different, and less invasive type of search that I feel probably does pass the 4th amendment "smell" test.

I specifically picked on amusement parks because they are not privately owned, thus not subject to all standards our gov't is. Privately owned facilities have much broader lee way in setting up admittance rules than a gov't owned facility. TSA searches may well meet our legal standards there, because they are not being imposed on us by the gov't. Your other examples, schools, sports arenas, and courthouses tend to be owned by Uncle Sam or his close relative, Stanley State. They have to follow tighter standards then privately owned facilities.
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Old 11-26-2010, 01:59 PM   #260
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Okay, several pages of intelligent comments without a single bit of comic relief. Remedy at hand:

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