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Old 06-28-2011, 11:19 AM   #401
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Pretty simple Greg. Are you in favor of individual rights or "insuring airline security"? Pick one.
Individual rights. I thought that was obvious when I said "I'm against searches without warrant or probable cause." Risks are often increased when individual rights are respected -- that's the price of living in a free and civil society.
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Old 06-28-2011, 03:48 PM   #402
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There is always going to be tension between respecting individual rights and ensuring airline security. You just can't do both. Maybe you think that if you were writing TSA guidelines you could somehow ensure that there was no chance of a bomb getting aboard without being obnoxious to 95 year old leukemia patients? Not so easy, I think. Just how exactly do you write the policies?
I agree with you that security at airports is not easy. Still, there is security and then there is ridiculous (due to PC as we have in this country). If you really want to know how to do it right, ask the Israelis. They have been under the gun for what? 30 (or more) years longer than we have without a single (that I am aware of) hijacking. Oh, and they DO profile and don't apologize for it.

My most recent flight, I got scanned AND groped - no I didn't set off the metal detector. Guess those extra rolls around the mid section could have been something bad (no wait, they concentrated south of there - heh, heh, heh.) Here's the weird thing. DW has to wear a "boot" right now due to an injury. She didn't even have to take it off nor did she get groped - even with titanium knees. Go figure.

Then there's this: TSA screeners under fire to address misconduct - Travel - News - msnbc.com
Sorry if this has already been posted. This was happening about the time I was going through the Honolulu airport I think.

Proposed TSA motto: Gag at a gnat and swallow a camel. YMMV.
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:13 PM   #403
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I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I do not believe that the excesses we are hearing about are necessary for airline security.
Agreed. I call it "Security Theater."
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:25 PM   #404
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I've read a fair number of blog entries by TSA workers who say that they hate having to treat people the way they do. It's a requirement of their jobs. Personally, I wouldn't work there, but I'm FI as well as RE. I'm sure there are a fair number of f'ing eedjits working there, and they are the ones that keep this thread going. However, the problem is the "shadow of the leader". The people at the top of the organization are responsible for the policies, as well as the responses to the most aggregious activities. In Defense of Mindless Government Drones - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine

I'm sort of glad this is going on. I don't fly if I can drive there, but many people do and being subjected to invasive and dehumanizing processes might actually cause people to wake up and realize that the risk/reward ratio of the TSA is pretty bad. Then, as GregLee says, maybe they'll vote for slightly less reactive and slightly more intelligent representatives. But probably not.
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:21 PM   #405
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I don't fly if I can drive there, but many people do and being subjected to invasive and dehumanizing processes might actually cause people to wake up and realize that the risk/reward ratio of the TSA is pretty bad. Then, as GregLee says, maybe they'll vote for slightly less reactive and slightly more intelligent representatives.< But probably not.>
Unfortunately the "probably not" is much more likely. Research seems to show that dehumanizing treatment just makes people more sheeplike, ie. less human. Governments and rulers of all sorts have had millenia to figure out how to subjugate those under their control, and they are usually pretty good at it.

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Old 06-28-2011, 08:45 PM   #406
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Oh, and they DO profile and don't apologize for it.
So, you mean, a 95 year old arab leukemia patient has to drop her pants?
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:51 PM   #407
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So, you mean, a 95 year old arab leukemia patient has to drop her pants?
Only if she looks like a terrorist...
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Old 06-28-2011, 09:40 PM   #408
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So, you mean, a 95 year old arab leukemia patient has to drop her pants?
No, they use behavioral profiling. If you look nervous, or exhibit other (classified) behavior that catches the highly trained[1] Behavioral Detection Officer's eye, you are singled out. Kind of like how the class bullies figured out which fourth-grader to beat up for lunch money every day.



1. A four day course. No, I don't know if it relies on comic books. Compare with airport security in Israel, where everyone goes through a 9 week course.
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Old 06-29-2011, 08:49 AM   #409
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Only if she looks like a terrorist...
I feel a country song comin' on...

Grandma was a terrorist
And grandpa on jihad...
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Old 07-06-2011, 02:54 AM   #410
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We've just had our latest flying experience, going from Newcastle, England to Madeira, Portugal.

The UK (and Europe) gave up the requirement to remove your shoes some time ago and Newcastle doesn't have full body scanners, plus we didn't have a pat down after passing through the metal detector. It was the same process coming back through security at Madeira.

Madeira immigration was a different experience for us. You had to go through passport control entering and leaving the country, but we never spoke to an immigration officer as it was all self service, if you had a recent, electronic passport.

There was a row of self service machines with an attendant walking up and down to assist where needed. You slid your passport face down into a slot and after the details were extracted your passport picture appeared on a screen. You removed your passport, stepped forward onto footmarks where your photo was taken and appeared on the screen alongside your passport picture. After a few seconds the photo is verified and the gate opens up for you to pass through. If something is wrong the attendant directs you to stand in the regular line to see an immigration officer. It was very quick and easy.

Last year we spent almost an hour in line at passport control in Houston because the process for permanent residents now appears to be the same as visitors where they do finger printing etc. Although they split out visitors, US passport holders are still required to line up along with "Green Card" holders who now take much longer to get processed. Is this just a Houston thing, or do other airports now segregate US Passport holders from permanent residents ("Green Card" holders) ?
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Now that Bin Laden is gone can we kill TSA?
Old 07-17-2011, 09:19 PM   #411
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Now that Bin Laden is gone can we kill TSA?

This week saga of TSA protecting us from terrorist grannies, features a 94 year old wheelchair bound woman.


I think what troubles me most about is this, is I know a high percentage of TSA officers are former military. I imagine quite a few of them did screening in Iraq or Afghanistan where a reasonable percentage of the people actually were a threat. I find it hard to imagine that PFC in Iraq would bother with patting down a grannie in a wheel chair and instead would focus on the 20 year old kids who were looking nervous. And yet here in America, the same young person is told to treat both people as an equal threat. Madness.
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Old 07-17-2011, 09:23 PM   #412
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Last year we spent almost an hour in line at passport control in Houston because the process for permanent residents now appears to be the same as visitors where they do finger printing etc. Although they split out visitors, US passport holders are still required to line up along with "Green Card" holders who now take much longer to get processed. Is this just a Houston thing, or do other airports now segregate US Passport holders from permanent residents ("Green Card" holders) ?

Not a 100% sure for the rest of the country, but I am pretty sure at Honolulu and Vegas, we abuse all foreigners equally regardless of their green card status.
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:28 AM   #413
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Not a 100% sure for the rest of the country, but I am pretty sure at Honolulu and Vegas, we abuse all foreigners equally regardless of their green card status.
Thanks. That makes sense to me. When visa entry and other visitors were processed differently to permanent residents, (US Passport and Green Cards holders), it was logical to not separate out the lines. Maybe Houston will be more efficient when we travel back.
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:45 AM   #414
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I'm sure you've all see this story:

Phoenix Police Arrest Woman for 'Squeezing and Twisting' TSA Officer's Breast - ABC News

According to the police report, Mihamae is accused of grabbing TSA agent Barbara O'Toole's "left breast through her clothing and squeezing and twisting it with both hands without the victim's permission," the New York Post reported.

My favorite part is the phrase "without the victim's permission."
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:21 AM   #415
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Facebook groups have already been created to help the alleged breast grabber.
In the group "Acquit Yukari Mihamae," one member commented, "She's a modern day Rosa Parks, standing up to 'Authority'!" Others are setting up a legal defense fund to help Mihamae.
I don't recall reading that Rosa Parks sexually assaulted any officials. I must read the wrong history books.
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:05 PM   #416
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I don't recall reading that Rosa Parks sexually assaulted any officials. I must read the wrong history books.
Maybe she grabbed and twisted the bus driver's man boobs. Without his permission.
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:09 PM   #417
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On a serious note, I don't understand the objection to searching grannies in wheelchairs. If we don't do that, then that is where the terrorists will hide the bombs. All they need is one little old lady from Mujahadeena.
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:20 PM   #418
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... one little old lady from Mujahadeena.
You must've been waiting for a long, long, looooong time to get that one out of your system...
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:53 PM   #419
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T-Al, sometimes you are the only thing that makes the day worthwhile, you know?

...little old lady from Mujahadeena...
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Old 07-19-2011, 01:38 PM   #420
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On a serious note, I don't understand the objection to searching grannies in wheelchairs. If we don't do that, then that is where the terrorists will hide the bombs. All they need is one little old lady from Mujahadeena.
Blow granny, blow granny, blow granny blow!
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