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11-22-2010, 10:44 AM
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#141
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Paquette
Thank goodness I'm not the only person who can do the math on this.
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Thanks, another excellent post!
Ha
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"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
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11-22-2010, 11:01 AM
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#142
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 4,946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB
M Paquette, thanks for another very useful post. A question:
Is this the same type of risk as UV radiation from excess exposure to sunlight?
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I'm not a cancer specialist, just an old phart with an ancient physics degree. I would say it is similar but not identical. The soft X-rays penetrate the skin much farther than UV radiation, so there is a greater exposure to the lower layers of the epidermis, dermis, and subcutaneous tissue. The topmost layer of skin, the stratum corneum (sp?) is dead tissue. As I recall a fair amount of UV stops there, whereas the soft X-rays deliver much of their dosage deeper, in the layers of living cells.
It definitely goes too deep for sunblock to be effective.
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11-22-2010, 11:13 AM
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#143
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Paquette
I'm not a cancer specialist, just an old phart with an ancient physics degree. I would say it is similar but not identical. The soft X-rays penetrate the skin much farther than UV radiation, so there is a greater exposure to the lower layers of the epidermis, dermis, and subcutaneous tissue. The topmost layer of skin, the stratum corneum (sp?) is dead tissue. As I recall a fair amount of UV stops there, whereas the soft X-rays deliver much of their dosage deeper, in the layers of living cells.
It definitely goes too deep for sunblock to be effective.
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Thanks for the response. Understand you are not providing medical or security advice. Still, humor aside, this is the only serious discussion on this topic I have had the opportunity to read.
From the letter you referenced I would conclude that people already at risk of skin cancer should probably pay close attention to this debate and look for additional analysis and intelligent discussion. This would include fair skinned people living in the southern hemisphere or close to the equator.
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In economics, things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.”
― Rudiger Dornbusch
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11-22-2010, 11:51 AM
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#144
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Palma de Mallorca
Posts: 1,419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonBoyd
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Interesting. It could just be a scam. On the other hand, if it works, it poses a problem for the TSA. Do the rules say that if the backscatter produces no result ("Sarge, this guy has no wiener"), you get the "enhanced patdown"? Will it become a Federal crime to wear X-ray resistant clothing when boarding an aircraft?
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11-22-2010, 12:03 PM
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#145
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,506
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New use for lead from old batteries. Lead based skin cream. Kinda like the zinc based suntan lotions. Patent pending.
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There must be moderation in everything, including moderation.
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11-22-2010, 12:29 PM
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#146
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigNick
Interesting. It could just be a scam. On the other hand, if it works, it poses a problem for the TSA. Do the rules say that if the backscatter produces no result ("Sarge, this guy has no wiener"), you get the "enhanced patdown"? Will it become a Federal crime to wear X-ray resistant clothing when boarding an aircraft?
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You bet they do. Any anomalous results get you pulled over for a hand job, er, enhanced pat down.
__________________
You can't enlighten the unconscious.
But you can hit'em upside the head a few times to make sure they are really out...
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11-22-2010, 12:54 PM
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#147
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyShackleford
Damn Dex, I'm surprised you aren't saying they should have
taken the "don't touch my junk" guy into the back room
and wrapped his head in a towel and then beaten him
with a phone book.
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Huh?
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Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
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11-22-2010, 01:11 PM
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#148
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Palma de Mallorca
Posts: 1,419
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Looks like the powers that be are starting to get calls from constituents who matter: BBC
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11-22-2010, 01:50 PM
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#149
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,572
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Good. If you don't like what the TSA is doing let them know:
https://contact.tsa.dhs.gov/DynaForm.aspx?FormID=10
I did. Of course, now I'll probably be subject to the super duper enhanced pat-down.
__________________
You can't enlighten the unconscious.
But you can hit'em upside the head a few times to make sure they are really out...
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11-22-2010, 01:58 PM
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#150
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp
The only upside of the TSA is it a gold mine of comedic material. If the government could sell TSA jokes and get royalty on TSA t-shirts and such we could probably get to a balanced budget in no time.
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I saw on the news last night that they are going to be mass producing a shirt with the phrase " It's ok, you can touch my junk"
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11-22-2010, 02:00 PM
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#151
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,572
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They need a new slogan: Reach out and touch someone.
__________________
You can't enlighten the unconscious.
But you can hit'em upside the head a few times to make sure they are really out...
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11-22-2010, 02:19 PM
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#152
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 6,258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keim
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They also have a fairly decent Blog at The TSA Blog. There is a lot of Public input -- and some (most?) not so complimentary -- so their skin is not that thin.
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
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11-22-2010, 03:24 PM
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#153
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2008
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 8,764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keim
They need a new slogan: Reach out and touch someone.
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Here are a bunch of new slogans (ripped off from Reason.com)
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"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Anonymous (not Will Rogers or Sam Clemens)
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
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11-22-2010, 03:32 PM
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#154
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EllisWyatt
Can I file a sexually harrasment claim against a TSA employee if they touch me? Nah, didn't think so......
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There are some lawyers on flyer talk forum that believe you can. A DA somewhere says he will file sexual battery charges against TSA officers if the local laws are violated. That includes unwanted touching outside clothes.
With videos of kids being stripped and search circulating I think the politicals winds are going to shift very fast.
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Be thankful for small dispensations
11-22-2010, 03:43 PM
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#155
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
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Be thankful for small dispensations
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
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11-22-2010, 04:06 PM
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#156
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Paquette
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I suspect the TSA is going to soon learn my internet 101 rule.
"The collective intelligent of the net on any subject exceeds any individual organization" Plus since this is TSA we are talking about and not say Google or Goldman Sachs this isn't even a close contest.
Here are some additional scary things the machines "deliver to the scalp 20 times the average dose that is typically quoted by TSA and throughout the industry.” The Congressman raising the alarm earlier in the year is no idiot with a PHd in Physics and the former assistant director of the Princeton Plasma physics lab. Evidently the initial biomedical panels recommendation was that TSA adjust the scanners so that the head and shoulder weren't part of the scanning. The TSA felt that adjusting the scanner to accommodate different heights would be too timing consuming so they aren't doing it.
So we combine the information Paquette posted and that was confirmed and amplified by UCSF letter and BTW one of the letter signers is a Nobel laureate that radiation doses are concentrated to the skin and the Comic ray comparison is a BS smokescreen.
Next we take the fact that TSA screens ~800 million people and the TSA agents are treating the scanner the same way they do the X-ray scanner for our handheld luggage. Namely that if they are unsure of the image they rescan. I think it is pretty clear to me the our government in the name of safety is subjecting us collectively to a 1+ billion dose of radiation which is absorb primarily by the skin around our brains.
When the controversy started, I thought this was just another example of classic expensive and stupid but ultimately benign government policies. I really had zero problems with walking through the scanners and was basically amused by the comedy. I realize that risk is still very low of cancer from being scanned but I now I genuinely concerned about the health aspects of additional 6-10 (average number of flights per year for me) doses of radiation the TSA subjecting me to.
Over the last 10 years 246 people were killed by terrorist acts (all on 9/11) on US commercial aircraft. Between the cockpit doors and the Flight 93 legacy I think the risk for airplanes being used as weapons is tiny.
I'll leave it to the nuclear engineers and doctors on the board who know way more than I do about this stuff to tell me what the health risks of 1 billion screenings are but I'd shocked if it wasn't more than 25 fatal cancers per year.
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11-22-2010, 04:11 PM
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#157
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Palma de Mallorca
Posts: 1,419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haha
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Or to put it another way, TSA chief reveals to would-be terrorists just how far they have to go.
In other news, the USAF reveals exactly which missiles their latest fighter aircraft is vulnerable to, and the Secret Service announces that President Obama will be going for a walk with Michelle, with no bodyguards, on the White House lawn next Tuesday at 11am.
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11-22-2010, 04:13 PM
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#158
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keim
They need a new slogan: Reach out and touch someone.
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I thought that was copyrighted by snipers.
__________________
There must be moderation in everything, including moderation.
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11-22-2010, 04:18 PM
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#159
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Palma de Mallorca
Posts: 1,419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp
I'll leave it to the nuclear engineers and doctors on the board who know way more than I do about this stuff to tell me what the health risks of 1 billion screenings are but I'd shocked if it wasn't more than 25 fatal cancers per year.
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A propos of nothing, I read many years ago - in a book! - that the odds of dying for a 60-year-old man are about one in a million every 15 minutes (just by being alive, plus his share of driving cars, flying in planes, jogging, etc, all the risky stuff that 60-year-olds do).
As I said, that's a propos of nothing. I suspect that both sides of the backscatter argument can use that to their advantage. Have at it.
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11-22-2010, 04:24 PM
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#160
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 6,258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoingHomework
With videos of kids being stripped and search circulating
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You do know that the father stripped the child (took his shirt off)... and in contradiction to the TSA don't you?
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
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