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06-28-2011, 10:19 AM
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#401
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kumquat
Pretty simple Greg. Are you in favor of individual rights or "insuring airline security"? Pick one.
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Individual rights. I thought that was obvious when I said "I'm against searches without warrant or probable cause." Risks are often increased when individual rights are respected -- that's the price of living in a free and civil society.
__________________
Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
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06-28-2011, 02:48 PM
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#402
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 17,794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee
There is always going to be tension between respecting individual rights and ensuring airline security. You just can't do both. Maybe you think that if you were writing TSA guidelines you could somehow ensure that there was no chance of a bomb getting aboard without being obnoxious to 95 year old leukemia patients? Not so easy, I think. Just how exactly do you write the policies?
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I agree with you that security at airports is not easy. Still, there is security and then there is ridiculous (due to PC as we have in this country). If you really want to know how to do it right, ask the Israelis. They have been under the gun for what? 30 (or more) years longer than we have without a single (that I am aware of) hijacking. Oh, and they DO profile and don't apologize for it.
My most recent flight, I got scanned AND groped - no I didn't set off the metal detector. Guess those extra rolls around the mid section could have been something bad (no wait, they concentrated south of there - heh, heh, heh.) Here's the weird thing. DW has to wear a "boot" right now due to an injury. She didn't even have to take it off nor did she get groped - even with titanium knees. Go figure.
Then there's this: TSA screeners under fire to address misconduct - Travel - News - msnbc.com
Sorry if this has already been posted. This was happening about the time I was going through the Honolulu airport I think.
Proposed TSA motto: Gag at a gnat and swallow a camel. YMMV.
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -
Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
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06-28-2011, 03:13 PM
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#403
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat
I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I do not believe that the excesses we are hearing about are necessary for airline security.
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Agreed. I call it "Security Theater."
__________________
You can't enlighten the unconscious.
But you can hit'em upside the head a few times to make sure they are really out...
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06-28-2011, 03:25 PM
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#404
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2008
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 8,764
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I've read a fair number of blog entries by TSA workers who say that they hate having to treat people the way they do. It's a requirement of their jobs. Personally, I wouldn't work there, but I'm FI as well as RE. I'm sure there are a fair number of f'ing eedjits working there, and they are the ones that keep this thread going. However, the problem is the "shadow of the leader". The people at the top of the organization are responsible for the policies, as well as the responses to the most aggregious activities. In Defense of Mindless Government Drones - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine
I'm sort of glad this is going on. I don't fly if I can drive there, but many people do and being subjected to invasive and dehumanizing processes might actually cause people to wake up and realize that the risk/reward ratio of the TSA is pretty bad. Then, as GregLee says, maybe they'll vote for slightly less reactive and slightly more intelligent representatives. But probably not.
__________________
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Anonymous (not Will Rogers or Sam Clemens)
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
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06-28-2011, 07:21 PM
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#405
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harley
I don't fly if I can drive there, but many people do and being subjected to invasive and dehumanizing processes might actually cause people to wake up and realize that the risk/reward ratio of the TSA is pretty bad. Then, as GregLee says, maybe they'll vote for slightly less reactive and slightly more intelligent representatives.< But probably not.>
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Unfortunately the "probably not" is much more likely. Research seems to show that dehumanizing treatment just makes people more sheeplike, ie. less human. Governments and rulers of all sorts have had millenia to figure out how to subjugate those under their control, and they are usually pretty good at it.
Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
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06-28-2011, 07:45 PM
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#406
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolau
Oh, and they DO profile and don't apologize for it.
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So, you mean, a 95 year old arab leukemia patient has to drop her pants?
__________________
Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
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06-28-2011, 07:51 PM
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#407
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee
So, you mean, a 95 year old arab leukemia patient has to drop her pants?
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Only if she looks like a terrorist...
__________________
Numbers is hard
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06-28-2011, 08:40 PM
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#408
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 4,946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee
So, you mean, a 95 year old arab leukemia patient has to drop her pants?
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No, they use behavioral profiling. If you look nervous, or exhibit other (classified) behavior that catches the highly trained[1] Behavioral Detection Officer's eye, you are singled out. Kind of like how the class bullies figured out which fourth-grader to beat up for lunch money every day.
1. A four day course. No, I don't know if it relies on comic books. Compare with airport security in Israel, where everyone goes through a 9 week course.
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06-29-2011, 07:49 AM
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#409
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 14,183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo
Only if she looks like a terrorist...
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I feel a country song comin' on...
Grandma was a terrorist
And grandpa on jihad...
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire
...not doing anything of true substance...
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07-06-2011, 01:54 AM
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#410
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Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N. Yorkshire
Posts: 34,056
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We've just had our latest flying experience, going from Newcastle, England to Madeira, Portugal.
The UK (and Europe) gave up the requirement to remove your shoes some time ago and Newcastle doesn't have full body scanners, plus we didn't have a pat down after passing through the metal detector. It was the same process coming back through security at Madeira.
Madeira immigration was a different experience for us. You had to go through passport control entering and leaving the country, but we never spoke to an immigration officer as it was all self service, if you had a recent, electronic passport.
There was a row of self service machines with an attendant walking up and down to assist where needed. You slid your passport face down into a slot and after the details were extracted your passport picture appeared on a screen. You removed your passport, stepped forward onto footmarks where your photo was taken and appeared on the screen alongside your passport picture. After a few seconds the photo is verified and the gate opens up for you to pass through. If something is wrong the attendant directs you to stand in the regular line to see an immigration officer. It was very quick and easy.
Last year we spent almost an hour in line at passport control in Houston because the process for permanent residents now appears to be the same as visitors where they do finger printing etc. Although they split out visitors, US passport holders are still required to line up along with "Green Card" holders who now take much longer to get processed. Is this just a Houston thing, or do other airports now segregate US Passport holders from permanent residents ("Green Card" holders) ?
__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Enough private pension and SS income to cover all needs
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Now that Bin Laden is gone can we kill TSA?
07-17-2011, 08:19 PM
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#411
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,733
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Now that Bin Laden is gone can we kill TSA?
This week saga of TSA protecting us from terrorist grannies, features a 94 year old wheelchair bound woman.
I think what troubles me most about is this, is I know a high percentage of TSA officers are former military. I imagine quite a few of them did screening in Iraq or Afghanistan where a reasonable percentage of the people actually were a threat. I find it hard to imagine that PFC in Iraq would bother with patting down a grannie in a wheel chair and instead would focus on the 20 year old kids who were looking nervous. And yet here in America, the same young person is told to treat both people as an equal threat. Madness.
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07-17-2011, 08:23 PM
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#412
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Last year we spent almost an hour in line at passport control in Houston because the process for permanent residents now appears to be the same as visitors where they do finger printing etc. Although they split out visitors, US passport holders are still required to line up along with "Green Card" holders who now take much longer to get processed. Is this just a Houston thing, or do other airports now segregate US Passport holders from permanent residents ("Green Card" holders) ?
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Not a 100% sure for the rest of the country, but I am pretty sure at Honolulu and Vegas, we abuse all foreigners equally regardless of their green card status.
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07-18-2011, 02:28 AM
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#413
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Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N. Yorkshire
Posts: 34,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp
Not a 100% sure for the rest of the country, but I am pretty sure at Honolulu and Vegas, we abuse all foreigners equally regardless of their green card status.
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Thanks. That makes sense to me. When visa entry and other visitors were processed differently to permanent residents, (US Passport and Green Cards holders), it was logical to not separate out the lines. Maybe Houston will be more efficient when we travel back.
__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Enough private pension and SS income to cover all needs
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07-18-2011, 06:45 AM
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#414
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,880
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I'm sure you've all see this story:
Phoenix Police Arrest Woman for 'Squeezing and Twisting' TSA Officer's Breast - ABC News
According to the police report, Mihamae is accused of grabbing TSA agent Barbara O'Toole's "left breast through her clothing and squeezing and twisting it with both hands without the victim's permission," the New York Post reported.
My favorite part is the phrase "without the victim's permission."
__________________
Al
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07-18-2011, 08:21 AM
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#415
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Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N. Yorkshire
Posts: 34,056
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Quote:
Facebook groups have already been created to help the alleged breast grabber.
In the group "Acquit Yukari Mihamae," one member commented, "She's a modern day Rosa Parks, standing up to 'Authority'!" Others are setting up a legal defense fund to help Mihamae.
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I don't recall reading that Rosa Parks sexually assaulted any officials. I must read the wrong history books.
__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Enough private pension and SS income to cover all needs
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07-18-2011, 12:05 PM
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#416
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
I don't recall reading that Rosa Parks sexually assaulted any officials. I must read the wrong history books.
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Maybe she grabbed and twisted the bus driver's man boobs. Without his permission.
__________________
Al
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07-18-2011, 12:09 PM
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#417
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,880
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On a serious note, I don't understand the objection to searching grannies in wheelchairs. If we don't do that, then that is where the terrorists will hide the bombs. All they need is one little old lady from Mujahadeena.
__________________
Al
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07-18-2011, 12:20 PM
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#418
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl
... one little old lady from Mujahadeena.
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You must've been waiting for a long, long, looooong time to get that one out of your system...
__________________
*
Co-author (with my daughter) of “Raising Your Money-Savvy Family For Next Generation Financial Independence.”
Author of the book written on E-R.org: "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement."
I don't spend much time here— please send a PM.
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07-18-2011, 01:53 PM
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#419
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 13,566
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T-Al, sometimes you are the only thing that makes the day worthwhile, you know?
...little old lady from Mujahadeena...
__________________
“One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching.”
Gerard Arthur Way
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07-19-2011, 12:38 PM
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#420
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2008
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 8,764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl
On a serious note, I don't understand the objection to searching grannies in wheelchairs. If we don't do that, then that is where the terrorists will hide the bombs. All they need is one little old lady from Mujahadeena.
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Blow granny, blow granny, blow granny blow!
__________________
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Anonymous (not Will Rogers or Sam Clemens)
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
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