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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-04-2005, 10:37 AM   #21
 
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

virtue doesn't come from the extremes, according to Aristotle . . .*
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-04-2005, 01:15 PM   #22
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

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Originally Posted by BigMoneyJim
Besides, other countries also have a high per-capita gun ownership rate. I think our (American) violence problems lie elsewhere.
Having lived in England for the first 32 years of my life, and still following events via weekly phone calls, weekly newspaper, regular visits and such, I am firmly of the opinion that guns have little to do with the level of violence.* They just make killing much easier to accomplish.* The British police authorities regularly publicise crime statistics and as measured per 1,000 people the crime rates in every category except murder are higher in England than in the USA.* (and even the murder rates are closing fast).*

A recent report on London talks about London and shows how much safer it is on the streets in New York than in London.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...09/ntec109.xml

An extract from the article:

The two metropolitan areas (NY and London) have comparable populations of just over seven million. In 1991, while London's crime rate was, by the standards of big international cities, relatively low, New York had the reputation of being the crime capital of the world.

There were more than 2,300 murders a year in New York in 1991 and well over 100,000 street robberies. London, by comparison, had 181 murders and 22,000 street robberies in that year.

Last year, there were 538 homicides in New York. That means the murder rate has decreased by a factor of five over the past 13 years. London's murder rate has not reduced at all over the same period: there were 186 homicides in the capital last year.

More astonishing still is the comparison in the statistics for street robberies. In 2003, the last complete year for which records are available, there were just 24,334 street robberies in New York while in London, 38,490 people were robbed in the street.

It takes some time for the significance of that statistic to sink in. New York, from having had a rate of street robbery five times that of London a decade ago, now has 14,000 fewer street robberies every year than our capital.

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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-04-2005, 01:59 PM   #23
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

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As a side question, I wonder if after other major disasters in other countries (oh, lets say the recent tsunami) if the local residents looted, raped, mugged helpless tourists and shot at the relief workers in the days and weeks following the disaster.

We should be proud.
Yeah . . . I'm beaming with pride. :
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-04-2005, 02:06 PM   #24
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

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Originally Posted by retire@40
Yep, only happens here.

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchas...42006657483017
Quote:
lawlessness has become a problem in the northern Indonesian region of Aceh, hardest hit by the disaster which originated in an undersea earthquake just 93 kilometers to the west.
Excuse me, I have to go put on my hairshirt now.
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 08:21 AM   #25
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

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Originally Posted by ()
As a side question, I wonder if after other major disasters in other countries (oh, lets say the recent tsunami) if the local residents looted, raped, mugged helpless tourists and shot at the relief workers in the days and weeks following the disaster.

We should be proud.
An excellent point, TH. My New Orleans' refugees tell me that most of these people have been living off the system their entire lives. They don't work, have never worked, and they are the folks that would have robbed you Mr. Tourist, if you took the wrong turn in the French Quarter. And alas, they are here in Texas, some to never return. They will demand all kinds of government assistance, forever. Always have, always will. In fact, that's one of the reasons they didn't leave. Somebody had to do it for them.

There is absolutely no excuse for this criminal behavior and it should not be tolerated or excused. Heck, you can think about an Amish reaction to a disaster. Ever see a barn raising. And puhleeze, don't tell me this is bigger than that, I know it. But, they do pull together, don't wait around for government assistance, and whine about whose fault it is.

Put the looters and rapists in jail. Or kill them, whichever is appropriate. I heard that some people killed a guy raping a 13-year old. Grrrrreat! The world will be better off without them. Shooting at rescue helicopters?? No excuse. They are human flotsam, human debris. End of rant.
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 09:09 AM   #26
 
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

Eagle 43 -- Think about the "kill them" part of your post.* We have been taught "an eye for an eye" -- not "an eye for a tooth."* In other words, the puniushment should fit the crime.* In Christian morality (as well as most other kinds), property rights are not to take precedence over someone's life, no matter how precious your stuff might be . . .
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 09:13 AM   #27
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

bogart,
he said rapists. I don't consider that a "property right's" issue? And every religion that I know of considers rape as being wrong. Sorry.
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 09:17 AM   #28
 
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

OAP -- as I read the post, looters are included in the same category (could be reading it incorrectly). Notwithstanding, is rape a shoot-to-kill, on-the-spot, no stinkin' trial needed, capital offense?
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 09:31 AM   #29
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogart
OAP -- as I read the post, looters are included in the same category (could be reading it incorrectly). Notwithstanding, is rape a shoot-to-kill, on-the-spot, no stinkin' trial needed, capital offense?
If you're the rapee, I say yes, no question.

If you're someone who comes upon the scene, well, that's would depend, wouldn't it? It's awful hard to say when you're not there. I don't think any blanket statements work.

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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 09:41 AM   #30
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

You're correct, but, what about the raping? What about shooting at rescue helicopters, at policemen? Any thoughts on that? I'm not advocating going after poor, aged, or even incompetent. I'm talking about the deliberately malicious, evil people who are handicapping rescue and recovery. It could be reasonably argued that the Louisiana levee, wetlands, pumping system is not up-to-par is because the money is being spent to keep alive a bunch of low-lifes who know how to work the system, but not how to be productive. They then reward the people who have provided that support by shooting and raping and looting. How about the punishment fitting that crime? For example, hypothetically, your mother is being rescued by one of those helicopters, and these fools are shooting at it. Or, your kid is being raped in the dark corridors of the Superdome? What is appropriate punishment for that? I think I know, but what's your recommendation? Turn the other cheek??

I am particularly interested in the articulate liberals on this forum. During the presidential debates a few years ago, someone asked Michael Dukakis if he would still have his anti-death penalty beliefs if someone raped and killed Kitty Dukakis, his wife. That fool Dukakis had an articulate but not emotional response, and it helped destroy his presidential bid. So, libs, should we destroy this debris or just feel their pain, blame the productive people, reinstate them, look the other way, and support them for the remainder of their lives? What would you libs do, if your 13-year old kid was being raped or they were shooting at the helicopter which was rescuing your family, and you had the .357 magnum in your hand?


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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 09:42 AM   #31
 
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

mog -- I agree with you, more or less. *I'm just deeply disturbed by the shoot-to-kill mentality. *Immoral, un-Christian, uncivilized, un-American, ineffective, and stupid. * We (the USA) can do a lot better . . ..
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 09:43 AM   #32
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

I have no children but if I perchance happened upon an act in which a 45 year old male was in the process of forcing a 13 year old child of either sex to copulate him against their will, yes. *Kaboom.


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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 09:44 AM   #33
 
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

OAP -- the problem is with extremists -- both liberals and conservatives. I have no answer to the hypotheticals you have proposed. We have laws covering most of these cases, I suppose . . .
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 09:51 AM   #34
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

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I have no children but if I perchance happened upon an act in which a 45 year old male was in the process of forcing a 13 year old child of either sex to copulate him against their will, yes. Kaboom.
How bout a 45 yo female?
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 09:54 AM   #35
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

MJ, as you know in your line of work* , that is legal.* No female can force a young male/female to have copulatory knowledge of said female.* Legal ruling, Ho v Paid.
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 10:11 AM   #36
 
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

Eagle 43 -- Is it possible for a person to be a moderate these days?* A lot of people seem to see the world in bipolar terms.* Sometimes, turing the other cheek works out pretty well in the long run (some Good People have suggested it in the past).* Other times, maybe not. How about thinking through issues on their merits, rather than falling back on whatever the current party line is for "libs" or conservatives?* Would it be possible that liberals sometimes have a good answer, and othertimes consevatives, and still other times neither?* I remember what my mother told me when Kennedy ran against Nixon.* She said to take both of them with a grain of salt, as neither would cross the street except for his own benefit.
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 10:30 AM   #37
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

Just saw this from the AP news agency this morning.

Violence boiled over when 14 contractors on their way to help plug the breech in the 17th Street Canal came under fire as they traveled across a bridge under police escort, said John Hall, a spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers. Police shot at eight people carrying guns, killing five or six, Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley said. None of the contractors was injured, authorities said.


Good news I say, pity they didn't kill all 8. I'm sure I would not hesitate to shoot anyone male or female I caught raping a 13 year old, male or female. That is one of the reasons I don't want to carry a gun. I'm not advocating disarming the population, just that I don't believe I could live with myself if I killed anyone for any reason. It's just the way I am.
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 10:39 AM   #38
 
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

Alan -- interesting point. I don't trust myself either, for lots of reasons. However -- lots of times, things can be worked out without killing anyone, as you undoubtedly know. One problem is that "rapes" can be staged to extort money from a supposed rapist (e.g.: "give me $100, mister, or I will scream "rape" to that passerby," who, most unfortunately, happens to be armed to the teeth).
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 10:46 AM   #39
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

I don't own a gun, never will. But, raping a 13 year old is wrong, sorry if the guy got beaten to death.
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns
Old 09-05-2005, 11:03 AM   #40
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Re: Get Rich- Sell Gas? Nope, Guns

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Originally Posted by bogart
Alan -- interesting point.* I don't trust myself either, for lots of reasons.* However -- lots of times, things can be worked out without killing anyone, as you undoubtedly know.* One problem is that "rapes" can be staged to extort money from a supposed rapist (e.g.:* "give me $100, mister, or I will scream "rape" to that passerby," who, most unfortunately, happens to be armed to the teeth).
Agree absolutely. I have even been personally involved in the case of an employee accusing a supervisor of coercing them to have sex. The (male) employee was an obvious complete "waster" and only brought it up at the point of being fired, but the incident had to be thoroughly investigated to clear the (male) supervisor. (this was obviously an attempt to copy the incident in the movie American Beauty). Fortunately we were able to track down the "witnesses" to the event but the supervisor went through hell.
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