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Re: The election
Old 08-08-2004, 02:26 PM   #41
 
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Re: The election

Well, I never kissed any asses either, which resulted in my own ass being fired several times. I did kiss a
couple of fairly homely girls in my younger days, but
that's a different kettle of fish

John Galt
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Re: The election
Old 08-08-2004, 03:47 PM   #42
 
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Re: The election

Bush vs. Kerry
My vote is for Kerry based on the following issues.

- Economy (advantage Kerry)
As Bush came into office the US economy was slipping into recession. Bush's tax cut provided a much needed stimulus and helped to expand GDP growth. However, the administration has been unable to control spending. This is true even though republicans hold a majority in both houses of congress. Spending under Bush's administration has increased 2x faster than under the Clinton administration. As a result the deficits are growing, weakening the dollar, and putting pressure on interest rates and inflation. Bush's answer seems to always be lower taxes. In reality, this isn't practical as the government needs to finance it's activities.

I'll give Kerry a shot at a reasonable budget. I think that no matter who's elected, they'll have to raise taxes.

I'm on the fence on the 'free trade' issue. I can see both sides of the argument. What I don't like is the hypocrisy of claiming that the US is for free trade when the government subsidizes many industries. Bush/Kerry are likely to be similarly hypocritical on this issue.

- Security (advantage Kerry)
Bush led the US into the war and occupation of Iraq. The costs have been staggering.

* The Iraq war undercut has the hunt for Bin Laden and the war against Afghanistan. Now Afghanistan is a mess, and it just blows my mind that we're leaving it to Pakistan (another military dictatorship) to hunt down Bin-Laden.
* Focus on Iraq and the policy of disengagement with North Korea allowed the North Koreans to more forward with the development of real nuclear weapons.
* The US relationship with many allies has been tarnished.
* US credibility throughout the world (which was high after 9/11), has been squandered.
* US credibility as a champion of human rights has been squandered.
* About 1,000 US soldiers killed, 6,000 US soldiers wounded, and at least 10,000 civilians killed.
* A staggering cost of $13,000,000 (that's billion) for the initial troop deployment. Plus $9Billion PER MONTH for combat operations, + $5Billion when forces are withdrawn, + $1-4B PER MONTH for the occupation which could last many years. For example, if the combat operations last until the end of March 2005, and the US continues a occupying force for 5 years, the cost would be:
$384 Billion Dollars = 13B + 24* 9B + $5B + 5*12*2.5B.

Bush's strong handed unilateralist approach is a good example of a part of the problem, and not the solution. Bush's explanation: 'they hate us because we're free' is ridiculous. I believe this strategy is breeding terrorists faster than they can be killed.

Kerry has been more forthcoming about the 'oil' issue. He's more likely to build relationships and work with allies to combat terrorism.
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Re: The election
Old 08-08-2004, 03:49 PM   #43
 
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Re: The election

Part II

Liberty and Human Rights (advantage Kerry)
As a civil libertarian I resent Bush's efforts to have government intervention in our personal lives. Examples include:
- 'gag' rule witch prevents any international organizations that receive US funding from discussing abortion as an option for terminating pregnancy.
- constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage
- a desire and efforts to roll back abortion rights
- refusal to honor the Geneva conventions
- efforts to undermine Habeas Corpus
- efforts to promote religion (for example, giving government funding to religious institutions)

The Bush administration seems oblivious to the fact that the Bill of Rights protects each and every one of us, no matter what the 'majority' thinks. Just because the majority are Christian, and that our nation was founded by mostly Christians, does not mean that the government should promote religion in any way. 'The congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion.' I believe that the Atheist that brought the 'pledge' to the supreme court is right on.

I expect Kerry is more likely to keep government out of our personal lives, to honor international law, and honor the US tradition of 'separation of church and state'.

Education (no advantage)
I don't think there's much of a difference here. Education policy is largely set at the state level.

Health Care (no advantage)
The health care situation in this country is in trouble. The costs are very high and consumers have few choices (largely regulated at the state level.) I disagree Bush's approach of limiting malpractice suits. If frivolous lawsuits are a problem, than the laws that describe what it means to be negligent need to change.

Experience (advantage Kerry)
Bush has never been very successful, at school or in business. His accomplishments are largely a result of his family ties and political connections. Kerry's accomplishments (Yale, Vietnam, law school, prosecutor, Lieutenant Governor, and senator) had stronger ties to his intelligence, ability, and work ethic.

Integrity (no advantage)
Bush is a flip-flopper. Kerry is a flip-flopper. Bush has either deliberately mislead the country into war with Iraq, or exercised very poor judgment. Kerry and the democrats stood silent, afraid to stand up against the Bush. The democrats have a lot to thank Howard Dean for. He stood up against the war in Iraq before it was popular to do so, once he did, and gained support, other democrats followed his lead.

Steady leadership in time of war (advantage Kerry)

The portrayal of Bush as a strong and decisive leader is a myth. His advertisements and rhetoric claim otherwise, but his actions in time of crisis speak for themselves. Compare Bush's actions on 9/11 to Kerry's actions when he lead a gunboat up the Mekong Delta in Vietnam.

Watch the video of Bush when he was told that the 2nd plane crashed into the WTC, and that the nation was under attack.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/bush-911.htm. He sat there, reading a children's book for a full 7 minutes, waiting for someone to tell him what do to. Is this how a strong decisive leader acts?

Compare to Kerry who earned the Silver Star Medal in Vietnam. Kerry's boat was under attack. He ordered that the boat engage the attackers, jumped off the boat and perused and killed a Vietcong solder who had a rocket launcher. Kerry also earned a Bronze for jumping off the boat exposing himself to enemy fire to save a fellow soldier who had fallen overboard.

Bush supported the Vietnam war, but used his fathers connections to get into the Air National Guard (he jumped to the head of a long waiting list), where his attendance was spotty.


Favorite Pet Peeve:
The USA Patriot Act has a provision that exempts the Ely Lilly corporation from all lawsuits related to the preservative 'Thermerisol'. Not a single senator or congressman will take credit for this, yet it passed.



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Re: The election
Old 08-08-2004, 04:11 PM   #44
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Re: The election

As far as nuclear weapons, I'd like there to be a stipulation that you can actually pronounce the ****ing word before having access to them.

I groan every time I hear one of these supposedly college educated legislators say "nucular".
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Re: The election
Old 08-08-2004, 05:54 PM   #45
 
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Re: The election

Picky, picky, picky. There are too many people
anyway. One thing that scares the hell out of some folks is that while Bush is often wrong, he is never in
doubt. Personally, I love it! Oops, I was drawn back into politics. Sorry

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Re: The election
Old 08-08-2004, 08:40 PM   #46
 
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Re: The election

August 6th was the aniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima. 170,000 people died instantly and then a bunch later on through the years.

Although most of us probably have not heard anything about it there is a spending bill before congress to make nuclear weapons "more usable". I think they mean smaller so we can drop them on neighborhoods and small cities I suppose. Make fun of nukes all you want but it's probably the biggest problem we face today. Since we no longer have MAD (mutually assured distruction) with the Russians and the US is willing to use pre-emptive strikes it forces all others to use the same strategy. How long can it go on? Even Warren Buffet says the nuke genie will eventually be unleashed since given enough time even this low probability event will come to pass.

And remember, just one nuke can really screw up your portfolio.
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Re: The election
Old 08-08-2004, 10:16 PM   #47
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Re: The election

I've always said that my biggest nuke fear is human error. I think the probability of somebody screwing up is close to 100%. Of course, when the Big Screwup happens, I don't want to be anywhere near it. So imagine my chagrin when I find out that a nuke near me is *almost* my worst nightmare:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/164280_nuke11.html

(Another good reason for Californians to stay out of WA )
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Re: The election
Old 08-09-2004, 05:32 AM   #48
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Re: The election

"He sat there, reading a children's book for a full 7 minutes, waiting for someone to tell him what do to."

He wasn't even reading! He was just sort of staring!
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Re: The election
Old 08-09-2004, 09:40 AM   #49
 
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Re: The election

Damn, I'm only gone 24 hours and we are back on
politics. Reminds me of the old horror flick. "The thing that wouldn't die!"

John Galt
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Re: The election
Old 08-09-2004, 11:52 AM   #50
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Re: The election

Quote:
Damn, I'm only gone 24 hours and we are back on
politics. * Reminds me of the old horror flick. *"The thing that wouldn't die!"
I don't like it either but if they can be contained here then that would be acceptable. It's the thing that has mostly done in the Motley Fool REHP board.
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Re: The election
Old 08-09-2004, 12:20 PM   #51
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Re: The election

Listen up folks! 18 pages and we break the record(remember SWR?). And then Dory breaks his silence and it's 'Jeez Louise" time - once again.

Don't you just love this---heh, heh, heh, heh --- November what!!
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Re: The election
Old 08-09-2004, 04:01 PM   #52
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Re: The election

Quote:
Since we no longer have MAD (mutually assured distruction) with the Russians...
Actually we do. Being short on funds, the only thing the Russians have been very careful to upgrade is their Strategic Rocket Corps (nukes). They know that they can no longer defend their country with their regular army, so they keep their nukes to discourage anyone from invading them. We can invade Iraq with impunity, and even use small nukes to destroy terrorist caves in Afghanistan if we absolutely need to, but we cannot invade Russia without risking turning the US into a radioactive wasteland.
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Re: The election
Old 08-09-2004, 05:19 PM   #53
 
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Re: The election

The US is already a "wasteland". The "radioactive"
part remains to be seen.

John Galt
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Re: The election
Old 08-09-2004, 05:23 PM   #54
 
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Re: The election

Quote:
August 6th was the aniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima. 170,000 people died instantly and then a bunch later on through the years.
Terrorism can be very effective.
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Re: The election
Old 08-09-2004, 05:24 PM   #55
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Re: The election

The "Doomsday Weapon" IS the ultimate solution. But we need to build ours powerful enough so there is no "Mine Shaft Gap".

Does anybody remember the call back codes? They were on the desk, coded into a puzzle...

Just keeping this thread going, in a non-political mode
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Re: The election
Old 08-09-2004, 06:03 PM   #56
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Re: The election

Many condemn the US for dropping the bomb but the fact is that it prevented the need for an invasion of the
Japanese home islands thus preventing a horrific
cost of US and Japanese lives. One high ranking
Japanese admiral admitted as much in his biography.
Another fact lost on US haters is that many more people
were killed by LeMay's fire bombing of Japanese cities
than by the two atomic bombs. War is truly hell, but
personally, I want to be on the winning side.

Cheers,

Charlie

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Re: The election
Old 08-09-2004, 08:00 PM   #57
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Re: The election

I wonder what it's going to take for us to be on the winning side in Iraq? Doesn't seem to be going all that well so far. If he can't say "nuclear," can we expect him to be able to pronounce, "quagmire?"

Oops, not supposed to attack or be sarcastic, I forgot. I am better off just keeping my mouth shut, I can't write in a civil way about him.

Anne
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Re: The election
Old 08-09-2004, 09:02 PM   #58
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Re: The election

Quote:
Many condemn the US for dropping the bomb but the fact is that it prevented the need for an invasion of the
Japanese home islands thus preventing a horrific
cost of US and Japanese lives.
That's a nice comforting attitude to try and assuage American consciences over the use of weapons of mass destruction against civilian targets. *It's "interesting" that your defence of this is that "golly we killed a whole lot more civillians with firebombing so this one ought to be ok".

The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . .

In being the first to use it, we . . . adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.

Admiral William D. Leahy, the President's Chief of Staff

"Mr. Byrnes (Secretary of State) did not argue that it was necessary to use the bomb against the cities of Japan in order to win the war. . . Mr. Byrnes's . . . view [was] that our possessing and demonstrating the bomb would make Russia more manageable in Europe."
Leo Szilard - atomic scientist

So, who are you going to believe? *A revisionist? *Or two guys who were there?

I'm sure that the Romans felt that torching villages and crucifying civilians was quite acceptable maintain their hegemony but that didn't make it right nor moral.
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 07:13 AM   #59
 
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Re: The election

The entire history of mankind is warfare and conflict.
Does anyone see anything different today? Wars, WMDs and
armed forces are created to kill people. In so far as they
do it they are doing what they were designed to do.

John Galt
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WWII & atomic weapons
Old 08-10-2004, 08:10 AM   #60
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WWII & atomic weapons

Hyperborea,

Although historians acknowledge the controversy over the decision to "end" the war with nuclear weapons, historians (Japanese as well as occidental) generally agree that the Japanese military was only persuaded after Nagasaki. Even after Hiroshima they were sure it was an anomaly, exhorting their troops and the civilian population to apply innovative "homeland defense" measures.

I've spent a lot of time at Pearl Harbor and the USS MISSOURI Memorial with Dick Fiske and other survivors. They don't agree with ADM Leahy. Just about any WWII veteran-- especially Army or USMC infantry-- will recall their great relief at not having to carry out the invasion. After Iwo Jima and a host of other islands with entrenched resistance, no one was looking forward to invading the main Japanese islands.

It's interesting that you quoted Szilard. I enjoyed Scientific American's article on his collaboration with Einstein designing safer refrigerators. Szilard had the inspirations but Einstein was the one who could work with the industry and file the patents. Later the same dynamic repeated itself-- Szilard was one of the first to realize that nuclear fission was achievable, but he didn't exactly have the interpersonal skills to attract the funding & teamwork that'd be necessary to develop the concept. He carried Einstein through the mathematics but it was Einstein who had to write the letters and make the introductions.

One of Szilard's grandsons is carrying the torch with military technology today... http://www.mrpopovich.com/Staff.htm
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