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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 08:53 AM   #61
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Re: The election

Good post, Nords. It was probably wasted on deaf
ears, however.

Charlie
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 10:35 AM   #62
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Re: The election

Gosh we have a fabulous ability to turn one tough subject into several others!

I'd offer a few things up on the ending of WWII. For starters, having some considerable knowledge of our leaders of that time, I feel far more comfortable with their well informed opinion to do what they did to end that war than the current administrations grasping at minority reports to use as 'reasons' for starting one.

And before we mourn the women and children we killed, check in with multitude of Korean and Chinese families that 'met' the Japanese invaders on a regular basis over the centuries. Of course, a Japanese historian will tell you that this was simply in response to the Mongol invasions in the 1200's.

Our campaign to bring WWII to a close gave us an island by island perspective on who we were dealing with: an enemy that would do anything and everything to make our victory as long and painful as possible. And every one of our servicemen and women who lost their lives had a family back here hoping they'd return.

I guess the good news is that overall most countries are a lot less barbaric and vicious than just fifty or a hundred years ago. We're progressing. Now if we can just get some of these pesky religions to stop exhorting people to kill each other, we'll be all set. :P
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 12:35 PM   #63
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Re: The election

My father was happy as heck, Harry dropped the bomb - otherwise there was an outside chance he might not have made it back for me to drive him nuts as a teenager. (LSV - Phil., Iwo, Okanawa and sitting in Guam when the bomb dropped). Other than the Kamikazees scaring the willies out of everybody - being Navy he always claimed he got the most banged up on SP in New Orleans well after VJ Day - everybody wanted to be a civilian again - hang the paperwork.
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 02:24 PM   #64
 
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Re: The election

Truly , bleeding heart liberals make me want to puke.
Mankind is destined for warfare and conflict. Thousands
of years of history verify this. There are too many people anyway. A few less won't matter. Let's just accept it and not slip over
into the liberal camp, i.e. "Can't we just all get along?"
Yeah, Rodney King; now there is someone we can follow.

John Galt
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 02:47 PM   #65
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Re: The election

John

Go out and hug a tree - you'll feel better. Remember - the givernment is here to help you - even when they screw up - they mean well.

Although I do harbor a secret desire to strangle a spotted owl - especially if it comes off the timberland partnership in which I have a 5% interest. Vactionland development now - oh well - it may work out.
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 02:52 PM   #66
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Re: The election

I see. *The "American" attitude is that it's moral to obliterate civilians, fund death squads, torture prisoners, and overturn democratically elected governments as long as it's the US government (or it's contractor) that does so. *But it's highly immoral for others to do so. *What an arrogant position to take. *This is what makes Americans so disliked in many parts of the world. *I would suggest that those Americans retiring overseas think twice about it and even if they do to invest in tall fences, dogs, and guards (and make sure that the guards are well paid).

As for "John Galt", I guess that his opinion of the morality of somebody like al Qaeda running planes into the World Trade Center was that it was ok. *I mean "There are too many people anyway. * A few less won't matter."
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 02:58 PM   #67
 
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Re: The election

Quote:
As for "John Galt", I guess that his opinion of the morality of somebody like al Qaeda running planes into the World Trade Center was that it was ok. I mean "There are too many people anyway. A few less won't matter."
Excellent point! - I'll bet the bleeding heart liberals of the Middle East that don't want war "Make him want to Puke Also". - Hey, maybe if He was born in the Middle East he might have even volunteered to fly one of those Planes - As Patriotic as he is!
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 03:00 PM   #68
 
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Re: The election

Hey! I didn't say it was the way things should be.
But, it is the way things are. Atrocities abound.
Genocide is widespread. Want and suffering are
the norm in many areas of the world. Do I wish
everyone could live in peace and plenty? Of course!
The world does not work that way.

John Galt
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 03:05 PM   #69
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Re: The election

Quote:
And before we mourn the women and children we killed, check in with multitude of Korean and Chinese families that 'met' the Japanese invaders on a regular basis over the centuries.
Wow, I hope that you're not serious. *You're not suggesting that it's ok to be immoral if the other person was first are you? *Didn't your mother teach you that? *There is no denying that the Japanese did some horrific and barbarous things in Korea, China, and throughout Asia. *But you can't seriously mean that it gave the US the right be barbarous do you? *Do the horrific things that US did in China (along with most of the European powers) give the Chinese the right to be barbarous to the US?

Oh wait, perhaps you weren't serious since you made this comment in another thread.

Quote:
Nah, I'm rarely serious and if you're not sure assume I'm not.
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 03:10 PM   #70
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Re: The election

Quote:
- Hey, maybe if He was born in the Middle East he might have even volunteered to fly one of those Planes - As Patriotic as he is!
Likely, since as George Bernard Shaw said, "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it." It wouldn't have mattered what country he was born in.
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 03:21 PM   #71
 
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Re: The election

Quote:
Hey! *I didn't say it was the way things should be.
But, it is the way things are. *Atrocities abound.
Genocide is widespread. *Want and suffering are
the norm in many areas of the world. * Do I wish
everyone could live in peace and plenty? *Of course!
The world does not work that way.

John Galt
Well, can you explain exactly why Bleeding heart Liberals want to make you Puke?
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 03:26 PM   #72
 
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Re: The election

Quote:
Although I do harbor a secret desire to strangle a spotted owl - especially if it comes off the timberland partnership in which I have a 5% interest. Vactionland development now - oh well - it may work out.
Unclemick,

This brings to mind an old Canadian Guide from Newfoundland that I knew. Whenever the Topic of Spotted Owls and Bleeding Heart Liberals would come up, he would start describing his receipe for Grilled Bald Eagle with Stuffing. Very, Very tasty he claimed and perfectly fair game in Canada as the Spotted owl was in the States!
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 03:55 PM   #73
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Re: The election

Quote:
he would start describing his receipe for Grilled Bald Eagle with Stuffing. Very, Very tasty he claimed
Wouldn't a bald eagle be tough and stringy? Actually wouldn't any carnivore?
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 03:58 PM   #74
 
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Re: The election

Quote:

Wow, I hope that you're not serious. You're not suggesting that it's ok to be immoral if the other person was first are you?
The people killed in those bombings did nothing to deserve their fate (well, maybe a few did something.)

In a time of war anything goes: torture, and yes, killing innocent people. Anyone who believes that America is immune from committing these attrocities is mistaken. It happens every time. Bush's suggestion that the prisoner abuse is 'un-American' is absurd. It's absolutely _human_ and happens all the time. If people believe that our leaders are immune from the strategies and temptations that have plagued every leader since the beginning of time they are in for a rude awakening. (Like what happened at Abu Graibe. I have friends that supported Bush's efforts in Iraq, until they saw those pictures.)

Do these observations make me a 'US hater'? Or a bleeding heart liberal? (what exactly is a bleeding heart liberal anyway?) I don't think so. Questioning our government, and holding them accountable is about as American as we can get. Now if I went along with whatever the party in power does because I'm a 'xx' or 'yy' to the bone, now that's Un-American.

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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 04:14 PM   #75
 
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Re: The election

John Galt,
I've been following your posts for a long time. Your adherence to Ayn Rand's philosophy seems as unbending as al-Qaeda's allegiance to militant Islam.

Could you explain your recent comment that in two years you'll draw your social security benefit? How can a Randian disciple who believes government is unnecessary and people should rise or fall on their own justify participating in "socialism?"

I'm really curious. Perhaps some others are as well.

Howard Roarke
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 05:20 PM   #76
 
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Re: The election

Quote:
Could you explain your recent comment that in two years you'll draw your social security benefit? How can a Randian disciple who believes government is unnecessary and people should rise or fall on their own justify participating in "socialism?"

I'm really curious. Perhaps some others are as well.

Howard Roarke
Galt spent his life as a businessman. Therefore he has all manner of stealing, moral inconsistancy, and wealth redistribution easily justified as long as it contributes to his bottom line.
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 05:25 PM   #77
 
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Re: The election

Hello Howard. Good question! Yep, I'm about as unbending as they come. Anyway, the easy answer to your question about
SS benefits is that my employer and I paid in all that money over 35 years and so the government is just giving my money back to me. Honestly though, it would
not matter to me as I believe you should take all you
can get from the government (all levels) and never look
back. Chances are good they will just waste it anyway.

John Galt
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 05:43 PM   #78
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Re: The election

Well John can speak for himself but to loosely paraphase some of the commercial fishermen around here - presumably Republican, although I don't ask.

About time the #$%^& govt. gave back some of the money they took all those years. (they are self employed and for many/most SS is their highest tax by far).

Me as a 'liberal Dem' am happy they protected me from squandering the money and will give back a little cushion in my old age.

I plan on aging into a grumpy Curmudgeon wherein I'll be against everything - but I will take the money. Happy in one year(age 62) and slowly, slowly, grumpy. Hey - if it takes long enough - may die a libertarian.
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Re: The election
Old 08-10-2004, 07:18 PM   #79
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Re: The election

I too object to this thread. Until now this is one of only a few forums where issues have been discussed with a minimum of politics.

Please delete this thread before name calling begins ...

We have many other sites on the net to argue this Kerry vs Bush.

The AARP forums were ruined by the invasion of young (20 somethings) leftists insulting members. It didn't take long before many quit the boards disgusted.

I will not read any more posts to this thread. If the election political discourse spills over to other threads I will leave this site for good.
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Re: The election
Old 08-11-2004, 09:52 AM   #80
 
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Re: The election

John Galt,
Thank you for a straight, honest answer. I, too, believe all governments, to varying degrees, are venal and self-serving.

However, where we part company is in my personal belief that the weak and oppressed, through no fault of their own, need help, if you're in a position to provide that help.

Without compassion, this world is not worth saving.

HR
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