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Old 07-29-2014, 12:45 PM   #41
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Nuclear was mentioned as an alternative... I live just south of San Onofre which was suddenly, unexpectedly, permanently shut down last year. This is an expensive proposition.

Rate payers paid to build the plant, to run the plant, and now we're being asked (firmly) to pay for the billions it will cost to shut down the plant. There are lawsuits over this. We're getting no energy, but still have hefty bills to pay.

I've also heard that the spent rods are held onsite - similar to Fukashima. Makes me very nervous.
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:46 PM   #42
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There is a better was to burn coal. It's going to come when the technology can be supported by higher energy prices someday.

Coal Gasification Could Unlock Coal’s Future | EnergyBiz
I seem to recall that while this is cleaner, it uses up a lot of energy in the conversion. So on the mining side, we will need to mine more coal, with those environmental impacts, for the same energy out.


Now I saw some links that seem to compare these new CG plant's eff% and their new technology and co-generation capability to the old 'average' plant. In that flawed comparison, the new plants look better. But, I think if you compare a modern CG plant to a modern 'standard' plant, the CG loses on eff%? But it has other advantages - whether they outweigh the extra mining, I do not know.

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Old 07-29-2014, 12:48 PM   #43
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It is really tiresome to listen to the constant whining about climate change. Yes climate change is happening and has been going on ever since there has been climate. And will continue so long as there is climate.
You didn't get the memo?

The new target is to admit that yes, perhaps there is something to this global warming, but we really can't do anything about it. Even if one country reduces it's use of fossil fuels, another one will just take up the slack. Any attempt to reduce the CO2 load is just an exercise in futility.

There's nothing to be done. It's too late. Might as well get used to it.

It turns out that denying global warming exists keeps regional governments from letting out new contracts for construction of higher sea walls, new water control systems, re-siting of power plants, construction of new port facilities, and other very profitable large scale projects. Oops! Bad for business, and bad for America!
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Old 07-29-2014, 02:26 PM   #44
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I guess a lot of things contribute to the global warming issue. I was just reading today in USA online that methane is 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide is in greenhouse effects with cows being a major producer of it. Maybe if everyone quit eating beef we could burn a little more coal.


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Old 07-29-2014, 02:50 PM   #45
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I guess a lot of things contribute to the global warming issue. I was just reading today in USA online that methane is 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide is in greenhouse effects with cows being a major producer of it. Maybe if everyone quit eating beef we could burn a little more coal.


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Quit or ease up on eating beef is actually one of the tips to curb global warming...the green house effect, death from smoking, oh I mean..climate change.
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Old 07-29-2014, 03:49 PM   #46
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You didn't get the memo?

The new target is to admit that yes, perhaps there is something to this global warming, but we really can't do anything about it. Even if one country reduces it's use of fossil fuels, another one will just take up the slack. Any attempt to reduce the CO2 load is just an exercise in futility.

There's nothing to be done. It's too late. Might as well get used to it.

It turns out that denying global warming exists keeps regional governments from letting out new contracts for construction of higher sea walls, new water control systems, re-siting of power plants, construction of new port facilities, and other very profitable large scale projects. Oops! Bad for business, and bad for America!
Nope, did not get that memo.

By the way, if all CO2 is eliminated, what wil plants do?
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:09 PM   #47
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Starting to smell bacon . I was hoping this discussion could go on without porky showing up.
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:50 PM   #48
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Starting to smell bacon . I was hoping this discussion could go on without porky showing up.
Why don't we let the moderators decide about Porky. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

This has been an interesting discussion about where we may get future energy that is needed. It certainly has given me food for thought.
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:57 PM   #49
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Nope, did not get that memo.

By the way, if all CO2 is eliminated, what wil plants do?
Won't happen unless there's a REALLY cold spell.

TRIGGER WARNING: The following content contains facts, which may offend some people's sense of truthiness.

Believe it or not, some carbon dioxide is produced from naturally occurring sources, both geological and biological. It's an integral part of the carbon cycle. The gotcha here is what happens if the level changes faster than life can adapt.

TRIGGER WARNING: The following contains content that may be offensive to Young Creationists

The past 400,000 years have seen CO2 concentrations from 180 parts per million during deep glaciations, to 280 parts per million during interglacial periods. These aren't the highest levels the Earth has seen, but they do represent the range that life on Earth is currently adapted to live with.

Over 2.4 billion years ago, the Earth's atmosphere consisted mostly of nitrogen and carbon dioxide, before the oxygen catastrophe occurred with the appearance of cyanobacteria. Note that reverting to these levels of carbon dioxide are likely to impact our lifestyle fairly noticeably. One would have trouble lighting the barbecue, for example.

The long term trend the past few billion years has been for the carbon dioxide level to decrease in the atmosphere. This has also produced some changes. About 34 million years ago, the CO2 concentration dropped below 760 parts per million, leading to an extinction event and the formation of the Antarctic ice sheet, locking up 7.2 million cubic miles of water and lowering sea levels. Plants evolved new respiratory mechanisms to handle the gradual drop, giving the Earth plants such as the grasses, maize (corn), and millet.

TRIGGER WARNING: The following contains content that may be offensive to persons who don't believe carbon dioxide levels can be measured.

Recently, carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere have risen to 400 parts per million, a new high for this particular epoch with humans in it. This is somewhat higher than that recorded in previous swings of the past several hundred thousand years.

TRIGGER WARNING: The following contains content that may be offensive to persons who don't believe that there is a greenhouse gas effect.

Now, natural changes do have an effect on the climate. Solar output has increased slightly over the past 150 years. The change is small, though, about 0.12 Wm-2 (Watts per square meter). The observed global temperature change in that period corresponds to an added flux of 2.9 Wm-2 with an error of 0.2 Wm-2.

There are natural sources of CO2 that can contribute the total concentration, such as volcanoes. Volcanic CO2 can be identified by the different ratio of carbon isotopes than those present in biological sources including fossil fuels. Carbon isotopes have different reaction rates due to the slightly different atomic weights of each isotope. Biological processes tend to concentrate Carbon-12 preferentially to Carbon-13. We see different ratios in carbon dioxide from volcanoes than from burned biological material such as fossil fuel. The added carbon dioxide does not appear to have an isotope ratio similar to that of volcanic carbon dioxide.

How do we know more CO2 is causing warming?
The greenhouse effect works like this: Energy arrives from the sun in the form of visible light and ultraviolet radiation. The Earth then emits some of this energy as infrared radiation. Greenhouse gases in the atmosphere 'capture' some of this heat, then re-emit it in all directions - including back to the Earth's surface.

Through this process, CO2 and other greenhouse gases keep the Earth’s surface 33°Celsius (59.4°F) warmer than it would be without them. We have added 42% more CO2, and temperatures have gone up.
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:59 PM   #50
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I guess a lot of things contribute to the global warming issue. I was just reading today in USA online that methane is 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide is in greenhouse effects with cows being a major producer of it. Maybe if everyone quit eating beef we could burn a little more coal.

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Actually, Mulligan, a lot of it's caused by all these darn people we have on the planet....

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Why don't we let the moderators decide about Porky. That's why they get paid the big bucks.
PAY, WHAT PAY?.....No one told me about that! Who do I talk to about this PAY stuff??
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Old 07-29-2014, 05:20 PM   #51
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PAY, WHAT PAY?.....No one told me about that! Who do I talk to about this PAY stuff??
The check is in the mail....
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Old 07-29-2014, 05:32 PM   #52
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The moderators pay the COMMUNITY by not allowing it to self-destruct!
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Old 07-29-2014, 05:34 PM   #53
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The check is in the mail....
Thanks Walt....I'll keep my eyes open for it!
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Old 07-29-2014, 05:58 PM   #54
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One of the things mentioned early in this thread is the issue of solar being subject to time of day and weather. Some of the larger , older solar power farms ( "Solar 2" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_E...rating_Systems in the ca. desert)use trough thermal collectors ( heats oil, that makes steam for a steam turbine generator) , these plants bring on gas fired boilers as needed so output is reliable 24/7. Lifecycle cost is still quite high , lots of machinery and labor in comparison to kw output. Plants are much smaller than central station power plants. "Solar 2" is still in operation.
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Old 07-29-2014, 05:58 PM   #55
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From Wikipedia, data from Vostok ice.

File:Vostok Petit data.svg

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 07-29-2014, 06:01 PM   #56
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Why don't we let the moderators decide about Porky. That's why they get paid the big bucks.
Yep, and they give me a 1000% raise this year, too!
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Old 07-29-2014, 06:08 PM   #57
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Thanks to Samclem for starting a very interesting discussion. And thanks to all those who managed to keep their eyes on the prize. Let's just leave it here.
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