Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-27-2006, 08:32 PM   #61
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,038
Re: The God Delusion

The Other Michael

Well said.
__________________

__________________
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
Lazarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-27-2006, 09:11 PM   #62
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,375
Re: The God Delusion

If The Michael is as thoughtful and articulate as The Other Michael, I hope he'll come around, too.
__________________

__________________
You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find you get what you need.
astromeria is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-27-2006, 09:28 PM   #63
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Re: The God Delusion

The Other Michael.....

Thanks for your thoughtful and extensive response. *Very interesting indeed......

Let me ask you this....... *In your opinion, if a person was raised in the culture of religion x but over time develops doubt as to the true existence of the god of religion x yet still maintains membership because he/she enjoys the culture, friendships and opportunities to participate in charitable causes with like minded people, is that person really an atheist? *He/she calls him/herself a member of religion x, participates in the pagentry and culture, but knows inwardly that he/she doesn't truly believe in the god of religion x with unquestioning faith.* Where do you categorize that person?
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-27-2006, 11:17 PM   #64
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: In the fog of San Francisco
Posts: 241
Re: The God Delusion

Hi youbet,

"Social infrastructure" seems to be a big part of many religions.* Having a support group is not a bad thing!

I would not be surprised to find that many people who respond to polls with "you bet, I'm right with <insert diety> and I'm a believer!" are actually what are called "apatheists".* You know, the ones who respond "oh sure, I believe" but you seldom/never see them in church/mosque/temple/synagogue/Kingdom Hall and religion never really seems to have an impact on their life.* It is like the people who are atheist but are "culturally Jewish".* You grow up with a particular religion permeating your life, but* even if you go through all the comforting rituals you don't necessarily believe.* Cue Zero Mostel singing "tradition . . . TRADITION!"

Being human seems to be, to a large extent, all about being "tribal".* Most everyone wants to belong, and belonging often ends up being a matter of "us good, them bad".* Look at sports, political parties, religions, etc etc etc ad infinitum.* It reminds me of* the old Firesign Theatre joke: "Mudhead, what are you going to do after we graduate?" "Well, I thought I'd go out and find a bunch of guys and dress up like them and follow them around!"


There are atheist/non-believer groups that are trying to offer an alternative to the social infrastructure of religions, such as the North Texas Church of Freethought (http://www.churchoffreethought.org/).

But as I've often seen mentioned, organizing atheists or other freethinker/non-believers/burn them now! folks can be very similar to herding cats.* As I pointed out earlier, atheists really don't have anything in common except not believing in dieties.* Shucks, if you want to pick out a particular diety (say the Christian god, though it is pretty hard to distinguish it from the Moslem god, since they both claim to be "the god of Abraham") atheists have lots in common with all the other religions that also don't believe in that diety.

You'd think that being able to say "hey, we don't believe in all those other gods too!" would make us universally loved, but that doesn't seem to be the case.* ** There often seems to be this unstated sentiment of "sorry Jack, even though the enemy of my enemy is my friend, I feel a lot more in common with my enemy who believes in a different supernatural being (and will suffer for eternity for that) than I do with you who doesn't believe in any dieities".

But belief or lack thereof seems to me to be the deciding factor.* I'd not be surprised if there isn't a larger than zero number of people in the heirarchy of any religion you want to name who don't actually believe in that particular religion.* A person may go through the motions (and that may be necessary to keep their job/family/head) but if they don't really believe in that religion it seems difficult to classify them as a "believer".

Is it easy to be an open non-believer in the USA?* I could refer you to a lot of people who'd probably reply "are you kidding me?".
The vast majority of the elected officials and populace seem to not only believe, but revel in pointing out how much they believe, along with wanting to make everyone else believe too.* The House just passed a bill that would make people who bring (and win) an Establishment Clause First Amendment case against the Federal government unable to recover their attorney fees.* (HR 2679, passed largely upon party lines* *http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2006/roll480.xml )* Luckily it looks like the Senate is unlikely to take up that bill, so it is largely a bit of election year politicking.*

But when you are a non-believer and you see a significant majority of the elected representatives in the Federal government basically pass a law that acts in the same way as a SLAPP suit does against people who want to try and enforce the Constitutional neutrality for or against religion, how do you think you end up feeling?

It is interesting that there seems to be a higher percentage of atheists or similar non-believers in many European countries than in the USA.* Even though some of those countries have official State religions, they also have the memory of the experience of decades of religious warfare that decimated whole countries.* Oddly enough, many of those countries with a much larger percentage of 'non-religious' among the population seem to have a much higher quality of life - longer lifespan, higher educational levels, higher reported levels of satisfaction etc.*

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

A Christian research group (Barna) reports that in the USA divorce rates among Christians was significantly higher than other faith groups, as well as for atheists and agnostics.*

Quote:
George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented:

"While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages."
Is it any wonder that non-believers aren't hot to jump on the religious belief bandwagon?* All we seem to hear is "if you'll just believe, things will be so much better for you".* Umm, doesn't necessarily look that way.

Personally, I don't give a rat's behind what someone else believes if they don't try to impose their beliefs on me.* But "believers" often seem to be (may I use the term?) "Hell-bent" on imposing their beliefs on other people.* How many states still have "blue laws"?* How religiously neutral is that?

I may have wandered a bit astray here, but that's not uncommon when I get "the bit in my teeth".*

For full disclosure I'll mention that I'm an Administrator at the largest freethought/non-believer/atheist forum on the Internet (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/index.php) as well as a member of the Board of Directors of the 501(c)3 organization that sponsors that forum.* I get to see a lot of "testamonials" from people deconverting from a religion.*

But we've got theists on our Moderator staff, and don't exclude believers as users.* As long as people are civil, they can espouse a pretty wide range of belief/non-belief - makes no difference to us.* There's a certain number of theists who find us a lot more "christian" (so to speak) than some of the fora that are devoted to a specific diety.* But I think that gets back to the difference between ethics and morality.* We try to ethically treat people as people.* If they get nasty, they get sanctioned.* But if someone wants to believe in X, Y or Z - go for it.* Just be prepared to offer a cogent defense for any propositions you put forth, as those propositions will have to stand or fall on their own merits.

cheers,
Michael
__________________
Michael Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 07:53 AM   #65
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 926
Re: The God Delusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
The Other Michael.....

Thanks for your thoughtful and extensive response. *Very interesting indeed......

Let me ask you this....... *In your opinion, if a person was raised in the culture of religion x but over time develops doubt as to the true existence of the god of religion x yet still maintains membership because he/she enjoys the culture, friendships and opportunities to participate in charitable causes with like minded people, is that person really an atheist? *He/she calls him/herself a member of religion x, participates in the pagentry and culture, but knows inwardly that he/she doesn't* truly believe in the god of religion x with unquestioning faith.* Where do you categorize that person?
Hypocrite? I apologize. Couldn't resist.

JG
__________________
Some of us have pretty stories, about good friends, good times and noodle salad.
Mr._johngalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 10:10 AM   #66
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Re: The God Delusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Other Michael


A Christian research group (Barna) reports that in the USA divorce rates among Christians was significantly higher than other faith groups, as well as for atheists and agnostics.
Atheists make up approximately 10% ofthe US population, but just 0.2% of the US prison population (source: Federal Bureau of Prisons, 1997). I wonder if the % of atheists in prison is really higher, but prisoners report that they are religious as a means of increasing their chances of parole. Which brings s back to the topic of US bias against nonbelievers.

OtherMichael,
Thanks for the post.

__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 10:50 AM   #67
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Re: The God Delusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr._johngalt
Hypocrite?* I apologize.* Couldn't resist.

JG
Mr. Galt...... *not to offend you by not being offended, but that word crossed my mind as well. *But, I think an inward struggle with religious faith might qualify as a special sort of hypocracy. *I think most everyone at one time or another ponders the meaning of life, why we're here and where we're going and all that. *From the Iris Dement song I quoted earlier: *

Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from.
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.


To be involved with a religious group that gives you some peace of mind regarding understanding/accepting all these unknowns yet having inner doubts as to whether that religious group's diety exists exactly as described is probably, technically, hypocracy. *But, hey, who has ever been a member of any group who hasn't at some point questioned? *It's a flavor of hypocracy I'd endorse.

Michael, again thanks for your response. *My past experience with so-called "atheists" has been a few acquaintances who are always "itching for a fight' in discussions. *I tend to be much more of a live and let live type and therefore avoid interaction with them if the subject of religion comes up. *I have enjoyed, however, listening to you.

The issue of classifying "doubters" still intriques me and I'm sure I'll be giving that further thought. *At the moment, I really can't get comfortable with classifying religious sect members who have anything less than 100% faith as "atheists." *

Regarding atheist organizations...... *neither you, nor the web sites you referred me to, *have mentioned much they do beyond denying the existance of dieties. *Certainly there must be social cause activity too? *You know, fighting for civil rights, supporting charities, providing avenues to give one's time and resources to help others and that sort of thing. *When DW and I were church members, those kinds of things were key to us and our church was known for taking activist positions and fighting for positive change on many issues. * *



*











__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 10:54 AM   #68
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Leonidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Where the stars at night are big and bright
Posts: 2,847
Re: The God Delusion

Lots of information to look at - thanks to the posters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
Atheists make up approximately 10% ofthe US population, but just 0.2% of the US prison population (source: Federal Bureau of Prisons, 1997). I wonder if the % of atheists in prison is really higher, but prisoners report that they are religious as a means of increasing their chances of parole. Which brings s back to the topic of US bias against nonbelievers.
A couple of observations. From many years of dealing with criminals, I would say it has been my experience that most people who wind up in prison are about as religious as my dog, before they go to prison. Upon arrival they find some practical reasons to become religious: Some actually do so in an attempt to recenter their lives - prison gives one a lot of time to think, if so inclined. But they are a minority. Many others declare religious interests because going to church services/activities gets them out of their cells and into a better environment for a few hours here and there. Lastly, some find God because they think it will make the parole authorities find them more desireable. Most prisoners religious faith is dubious at best. Although, some may feel it is genuine while they are locked up and fall back to their old manner of living when they get out. Sort of the "there are no atheists in foxholes" concept.

It is interesting to note that here in Texas there is a program funded by an outside group that administers a faith-based program inside one of the prison units. It's only a few years old, but comparing eligible inmates to elegible inmates who "graduate" from the program, the recidivism rates are different - 22% for non-participants vs 8% for those who completed the program and have entered parole.
__________________
There is no pleasure in having nothing to do; the fun is having lots to do and not doing it. - Andrew Jackson
Leonidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 10:54 AM   #69
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,505
Re: The God Delusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
Azanon.....serious question for ya.......

I've always struggled understanding what atheists believe in as opposed to non-believers.* Do atheists have beliefs that can be expressed in terms other than stating what they do not believe?
I neither believe or disbelieve in any religion. * Why am i obiligated to even bother forming a position on them just because a man or a group of men can fabricate any number of religions? *The whole realm of "belief" to me is illogical, because it involves declaring some kind of truth without sufficient proof to stamp it simply "knowing" instead of "belief". * As a scientist, i can tell you what we know in terms of theories, and laws, but it is all based on empirical and tested evidence, most of will will be published in scientific journals. *"Belief" is a tool of the common man. * Scientists just dont go there. * *

Humility is not a human's strong point; and it never will be. *I doubt we will ever see the day that the majority of us say that we're not going to live forever; regardless of how much evidence science is able to dig up showing a completely biological and empirical origin. *We're way too proud, as a people and a species, to say that our existence is finite regardless of whether that is actually the case. * "We" simply must live forever and, by God, even if it isnt true, you can bet most of us will form religions that say that. *

A christain that claims to know (instead of believe) is making a boast they simply cannot backup fully with proof; unless God himself appeared before them like he did Elijah. * He would also be ignoring that his own bible says that it takes faith anyway, so he would be making an improper argument. *Regardless, one's mind can play serious tricks on you. * *So many want to believe so badly, that they make it seem like its very much a reality. *But wanting it to be true; wanting to not just be flesh and blood that will pass away someday, won't make it so.
__________________
azanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 10:56 AM   #70
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: The God Delusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azanon
Humility is not a human's strong point; and it never will be. *


This out to be in your sig line, Az.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 11:00 AM   #71
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Re: The God Delusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
Atheists make up approximately 10% ofthe US population, but just 0.2% of the US prison population (source:* Federal Bureau of Prisons, 1997).* *
These statistics really cause me to question the definition of "atheist." *From what I'm getting from the interesting discussion going on here, this statistic would mean that 99.8% of the US prison population are true, non-doubting, religious diety believers. *Somehow that doesn't pass my common sense test.

Is it possible that lots of people are not either hard core diety believers or non-believers but somewhere in the middle doing their own thing?

__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 11:29 AM   #72
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,505
Re: The God Delusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345


This out to be in your sig line, Az.
haha, well i said pretty recently i'm not humble.* Humility is one of those social graces where people basically downplay their true value.* I think that's inherently silly and unnecessary.* Humility rarely impresses me because it always comes across to me as contrived unless the person doing it actually convinces me that they're truly unaware of their actual worth. Sure, on rare occasions you can have a person ignorant of their true value, but its clearly the exception, not the rule.

But i was using it there in a sarcastic sense, meaning that we're so "not humble" that we're going to effectively make ourselves Gods (live forever) whether we actually will or not.* *Truth is not the issue there.* The majority WILL believe they'll live forever, first and foremost, because they're human, not because they're religious.
__________________
azanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 11:35 AM   #73
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,505
Re: The God Delusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
These statistics really cause me to question the definition of "atheist." *From what I'm getting from the interesting discussion going on here, this statistic would mean that 99.8% of the US prison population are true, non-doubting, religious diety believers. *Somehow that doesn't pass my common sense test.

Is it possible that lots of people are not either hard core diety believers or non-believers but somewhere in the middle doing their own thing?

People in prison usually have some sort of mental issue that got them there, and one has to be a bit irrational to accept any religion, so it makes a good deal of sense to me. * shrug *
__________________
azanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 11:52 AM   #74
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Re: The God Delusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azanon
haha, well i said pretty recently i'm not humble. Humility is one of those social graces where people basically downplay their true value. I think that's inherently silly and unnecessary. Humility rarely impresses me because it always comes across to me as contrived unless the person doing it actually convinces me that they're truly unaware of their actual worth. Sure, on rare occasions you can have a person ignorant of their true value, but its clearly the exception, not the rule.
"Good breeding consists in concealing how much we think of ourselves and how little we think of the other person."

Mark Twain
(Samuel Clemens)
samclem
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 12:21 PM   #75
Recycles dryer sheets
dusk_to_dawn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 163
Re: The God Delusion

<<My past experience with so-called "atheists" has been a few acquaintances who are always "itching for a fight' in discussions.>>


I'll bet you know a lot more atheists than you realize, and most are seeking to avoid confrontations conversations about religion rather than "itching for a fight." The "itching" type are annoying regardless of their views.



__________________
The way I see it, you got two choices. You either gotta get busy livin'...or get busy dyin'.
dusk_to_dawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 12:32 PM   #76
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,505
Re: The God Delusion

Quote:
"Good breeding consists in concealing how much we think of ourselves and how little we think of the other person."

Mark Twain
(Samuel Clemens)
* * * samclem
I fully agree, which is why I key in on that in real life.* *These messageboards are not real life.* *This life disappears when i click that power button on the monitor.* No repercussions other than an occasional flame.* *

Azanon

(edit) tidbit: for those that do not know, Mark Twain was an atheist.
__________________
azanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 12:39 PM   #77
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Re: The God Delusion

I'm sure that's true d to d. *It seems the definition of atheist is a bit of a misty cloud, at least in the discussion we're having here. *It's easy to vision people at the extremes: *an assertive atheist getting in the face of a Muslim to let them know he thinks they're nuts for believing in their god or, on the other extreme, an Orthadox Jew living a strict religion-directed life. *But I have a feeling most folks are somewhere in the middle and get shoved into buckets as convenient.

BTW, when I made that statement, I was thinking of assertive atheists who seek you out to influence the way you think.* My acquaintances who identify themselves as atheists are that type.* *:P And always "itching for a fight." *
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 12:42 PM   #78
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,505
Re: The God Delusion

I've never met an assertive atheist in RL, and only a few that claim to even be one.* *Most really are quiet because most tend to be educated, and know when they're outnumbered.* *It does one little social favors to go waving a big banner declaring one is an atheist.* *I'm sure people like Dan Barker who made it so public face constant social torment because of it.

I'm definitely a closet atheist in RL, except to a select few friends and my mom and dad.
__________________
azanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 12:57 PM   #79
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
Re: The God Delusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azanon
People in prison usually have some sort of mental issue that got them there, and one has to be a bit irrational to accept any religion, so it makes a good deal of sense to me.* * shrug *
I would have to disagree with the "usually have some sort of mental issue that got them there" portion of this statement. Some do have a mental issue that caused the action, but many, even though they suffer from some type of mental issue, it had no effect on their criminal actions.

I would probably describe them as selfish. After all they are normally only thinking of themselves and how they can get ahead, no matter the costs.
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
lets-retire is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The God Delusion
Old 09-28-2006, 12:58 PM   #80
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: In the fog of San Francisco
Posts: 241
Re: The God Delusion

Yeah, there are lots of "apa-atheists" too - people who just don't have religion impact their lives, and so don't give it any thought.

youbet, at IIDB we've got a pretty active Church/State Separation forum (and yes, there are people in the USA who are working towards instituting a theocracy), a Secular Lifestyle forum to help people deal with being secular in a largely theistic culture, a forum dealing with secular activism, and an Evolution/Creation forum that has a lot of very knowledgeable people helping to debunk the so-called "Intelligent Design" and other pseudo-scientific beliefs that are being insinuated into schools.

Non-believers can be just as humanitarian as believers. *But you get back to the "where's the organizing principle" issue to bring people together. *The absence of a belief doesn't tend to bring people together into a group, and then once a group is there they go looking for something to do. *

My impression is that many of the non-believers just do their humanitarian/charitable activities without making a fuss about it. *Religious organizations often seem to make a big hullaballo about "look what we are doing for the greater glory of our diety".

Robert Ingersoll wrote "The hands that help are holier than the lips that pray." *There seem to be a lot of believers who have the idea of "I know what I'll do to help those unfortunate people, I'll add them to my prayer list" and figure they've done their part. *The non-believer doesn't have that easy out - they either help, or recognize that they aren't helping.

You certainly can't help everyone, and each individual has to pick and choose their cause(s). *

If you want to envision someone getting into someone else's face, you don't have to go much farther than the typical street preacher, JW/Mormon door-bell ringer, etc.* It is so heartwarming to have someone come up and tell you that you are a vile person destined for eternal punishment.

Shucks, I think there are whole television networks devoted to that.

The "angry atheist" tends, in my experience, to be someone who has had all they can stand and they can't stands no more.* Remember, a large number of atheists were at one time believers, and often very devout and dedicated believers (including members of the clergy).* When you get to a point where you look back and have no choice but to conclude that the last X decades of your life were spent on a sham, and then you find that when you want to go your own way you are shunned by your friends and/or family, it isn't surprising that there can be a teensy bit of anger that shows up.

It doesn't help either when you see your government officials, who are supposed to be acting in a neutral fashion to all citizens regardless of belief or lack thereof, busy doing everything they can to inject not just religion, but a specific religion, into government activities.

cheers,
Michael
__________________

__________________
Michael Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God... Michael Other topics 310 09-02-2005 05:21 PM
MOVED: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God... REWahoo FIRE and Money 0 08-11-2005 03:36 PM
My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God... Cal FIRE and Money 0 08-03-2005 09:23 PM
There is no God but God, and no safe haha FIRE and Money 24 07-23-2005 04:47 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:18 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.