Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-21-2013, 07:41 AM   #61
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,428
It's tough having enough thermal storage for a seasonal cycle. Most commonly, one can have enough storage just for a diurnal cycle.

I once entertained the idea of having my A/C exchanging the heat with my swimming pool instead of the air. Here in the arid SW, pool water tends to be cool (70F) due to evaporation, even when the air temperature might be more than 100F. Hence, there is the desire to warm the pool up, plus exchanging heat with a cooler body than air would help efficiency.

So, my A/C is a 5-ton unit, running about 10 hours out of a 24-hr period. It will need to sink 5 tons * 12,000 BTU/hr/ton * 10 hrs/day = 600,000 BTU/day.

Dumping the above heat into a 25,000-gal pool will heat it up 3 deg F a day. In open air, I do not know how high the water temperature will get until it gets to a stable point, where heat gain equals heat loss. However, I am sure that the A/C will warm it up very nicely, and if it is too hot, I can always run the aerator to cool it down by evaporation.

I never looked further to experiment with this. But suppose I manage to insulate the pool to use it for thermal storage. At a rise of 3F/day, it would be boiling before the summer is over!

Water has a much higher specific heat than solid materials such as rock, and the fluidity also helps circulating the heat. It is going to be very difficult to use a bed rock for seasonal thermal storage. It would have to be huge.
__________________

__________________
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 10-21-2013, 07:45 AM   #62
Recycles dryer sheets
TOOLMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
It's tough having enough thermal storage for a seasonal cycle. Most commonly, one can have enough storage just for a diurnal cycle. I once entertained the idea of having my A/C exchanging the heat with my swimming pool instead of the air. Here in the arid SW, pool water tends to be cool (70F) due to evaporation, even when the air temperature might be more than 100F. Hence, there is the desire to warm the pool up, plus exchanging heat with a cooler body than air would help efficiency. So, my A/C is a 5-ton unit, running about 10 hours out of a 24-hr period. It will need to sink 5 tons * 12,000 BTU/hr/ton * 10 hrs/day = 600,000 BTU/day. Dumping the above of heat into a 25,000-gal pool will heat it up 3F a day. In open air, I do not know how high the temperature will get until it gets to a stable point. However, I am sure that the A/C will warm it up very nicely, and if it is too hot, I can always run the aerator to cool it down by evaporation. I never looked further to experiment with this. But suppose I manage to insulate the pool to use it for thermal storage. At a rise of 3F/day, it would be boiling before the summer is over! Water has a much higher specific heat than solid materials such as rock, and the fluidity also helps circulating the heat. It is going to be very difficult to use a bed rock for seasonal thermal storage. It would have to be huge.
We are getting off topic but I found these figures to be very close to my real wold numbers.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image-3646416598.jpg (226.8 KB, 19 views)
__________________

__________________
TOOLMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 07:56 AM   #63
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,428
Surely, if one can make use of the time-of-day difference in electric rates, he will come out ahead.

Your chart shows an off-peak rate of $0.05/KWhr, and $0.11/KWhr on-peak. What I am paying is $0.07/KWhr off-peak, and $0.21 for on-peak. And in the summer, the $0.21 price is when I, along with the entire city, need to run the A/C.

Nobody has found an easy way to store off the "cool" that can be produced off-peak. I have looked at solar electric installation which would be ideal, but my house orientation is not suitable for it.
__________________
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 08:10 AM   #64
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,906
Our house uses electric heat (mostly zoned heating with baseboards) so I replaced only the outside lights with LEDs at first (while LED bulbs were expensive). Like others noted, if you have a baseboard heater running in a room, you are not saving anything by having your LED light only consume 10 watts compared to a filament bulb 60 watts. The baseboard just has 50 watts less it needs to output. We live in the Northwest and so use a little bit of heat probably 8 months out of the year. Plus we have cheap hydro.

In the southern states, the LED would be especially good as you are running an AC to keep the house cool and so don't want that 50 watts of waste heat from a 60 watt incandescent.
__________________
Fermion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 08:25 AM   #65
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,465
Getting back on topic, can anyone recommend a LED equivalent for a dimmable indoor flood BR40?
__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 08:25 AM   #66
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fermion View Post
In the southern states, the LED would be especially good as you are running an AC to keep the house cool and so don't want that 50 watts of waste heat from a 60 watt incandescent.
I have used CFLs since forever. Have not bought any LED yet, though I have homebrewed LED lights for my motorhome for boondocking purposes.

The little LED module that puts out enough light as a 60W bulb is down to less than $1.50, in single qty. off eBay, with free shipping from Guangdong! Note that this is the LED assembly without any electronics for people who want to play with it.
__________________
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 08:32 AM   #67
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,465
We had very bad results with CFL (BR40 equivalent), losing 12 in less than a year. The manufacturer wouldn't make good on the warranty because we didn't have original receipts and packaging. If we can find LEDs for these, especially at the price level mentioned earlier, I definitely will keep original receipts.
__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 12:05 PM   #68
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
travelover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by calmloki View Post
The equivalent LEDs I've looked at are pretty close in electric consumption to the CFLs.
.........
Thanks for posting this, I thought LEDs were about 10 times as efficient as an incandescent and CFLs were about 4 times as efficient. My only experience with LEDs is in RVs were they make a whopping difference in battery life when camping off grid. There, I've just been using a simple voltage regulator to maintain a 12 volt maximum.
__________________
Yes, I have achieved work / life balance.
travelover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 12:50 PM   #69
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,906
I made my own RV led lights (didn't like the cheap plastic fixtures that RV stores sell) by taking 110VAC Sylvania flush mount ceiling lights and stripping out the 110VAC to ~36VDC buck converter circuitry (ie, clip two wires). I then wired in a potted DC-DC converter module that takes 10 to 32V DC input and can output up to 48V DC at 700mA (called the FlexBlock)

A011-D-V-700 FlexBlock - LED Supply.com

Works a treat. Before stripping down the 9 watt Sylvania fixture I measured the LED string voltage (was around 42VDC). I played around with resistor values until I found a light output that was pleasing. This was 38V output from the Flexblock which consumed 7 watts of input power (Flexblock set to output constant current of about 160mA). I ran the lamp and Flexblock for a few hours mounted to the RV roof while monitoring the temperature and it only went up a couple of degrees above ambient.

This is what they look like in the RV we are custom building:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg interioraft.jpg (183.8 KB, 9 views)
__________________
Fermion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 01:28 PM   #70
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 55
Cree 6W (40W) $6.97 and 9.5W (60W) $9.97 at Home Depot 10-20-2013 - Slickdeals.net
__________________
mike143 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 02:50 PM   #71
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
walkinwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,676
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
Getting back on topic, can anyone recommend a LED equivalent for a dimmable indoor flood BR40?
I bought 2 Ecosmart BR40s from Home Depot about 9 months ago for the kitchen and am pleased with them.
__________________
walkinwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 03:09 PM   #72
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
walkinwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,676
Looks like it may pay to wait for LED bulbs that have the energy star label.
Quote:
Light output depends on the bulb's spec, but is a minimum of 1,600 lumens for bulbs purporting equivalence to a 100-W incandescent bulb. Among the other criteria are color rendering index of at least 80, and a rated life of at least 25,000 hours...
A tale of two tests: why Energy Star LED light bulbs are a rare breed
__________________
walkinwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 08:55 AM   #73
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelover View Post
Thanks for posting this, I thought LEDs were about 10 times as efficient as an incandescent and CFLs were about 4 times as efficient. My only experience with LEDs is in RVs were they make a whopping difference in battery life when camping off grid. There, I've just been using a simple voltage regulator to maintain a 12 volt maximum.
Many non-white LEDs are more efficient than CFL bulbs as you thought, but most of us want white light. Right now white LEDs and CFLs are running neck and neck. Improvements are being made for each color of led light (including white). Last I heard green was the current winner, it was blue before that.

I think RV lights mix yellow in with white to get more efficient light fixtures.
Since RV owners are used to 12v automotive type lights they seem to get away with this. Some RV owners complain that the light near the edges of the lit area has yellow dots. I haven't switched my RV over yet, so my only personal experience is playing with them in the store, which is already lit by fluorescent bulbs and may mask that kind of effect.
__________________
This sig intentionally left blank.
gozer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 09:03 AM   #74
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by gozer View Post
Many non-white LEDs are more efficient than CFL bulbs as you thought, but most of us want white light. Right now white LEDs and CFLs are running neck and neck. Improvements are being made for each color of led light (including white). Last I heard green was the current winner, it was blue before that.
I've thought about this, even before the white LEDs were available. It would seem that in something as large as a residential light bulb there would be plenty of room to include a mix of efficient color LEDs and blend the light together (a few layers of "frosted"/scattering glass?) to give a white light at the surface. Obviously this isn't practical or it they'd be doing it. Maybe it's the light losses/heat produced in the "mixing" process that makes it impractical.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 09:04 AM   #75
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,906
I think LEDS are just a tad more efficient than CFL, but they last longer (at least the light emitting part does) and are not as fragile. For RVs the other big advantage is they are usually lower profile and don't shatter.

The Sylvania LED home fixture I modified for RV use is only about 1 inch thick at the middle, including the bezel. This would be hard to fit a CFL in.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg lightback.jpg (46.8 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg light1ma.jpg (106.7 KB, 1 views)
__________________
Fermion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 09:23 AM   #76
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,465
Another LED question. A light fixture has a 60W incandescent bulb limit. Can one could use a LED with a higher equivalent light output, say 100W, if it fits?
__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 09:27 AM   #77
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
Another LED question. A light fixture has a 60W incandescent bulb limit. Can one could use a LED with a higher equivalent light output, say 100W, if it fits?
Yes. The 60W incandecent limit was related to energy draw and heat issues. So you can put something in that pulls less energy and generates less heat with no problems.
__________________
This sig intentionally left blank.
gozer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 05:59 PM   #78
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,380
I never thought I would do this since I already hoarded up a few packages of the regular bulbs, but I was in Home Depot today and saw 4 packs of the 14 watt energy lights (60 watt regular bulb output) regularly 6.99 on sale for $1.99. The sale sign said price reduction made possible by Ameren (local utility). Well I darn well knew what that meant. I was the one supplying the discount, so I decided I better get them while they were cheap. The savings on energy cost is fairly impressive. But I still need the hoarded bulbs, as they have to go in my dimmer lights as these things do not work worth a crap in those fixtures.
__________________
Mulligan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 06:11 PM   #79
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,423
LED or CFL?
__________________
explanade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 06:28 PM   #80
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,380
[QUOTE="explanade;1376479"]LED or CFL?[/QUOTE

It is CFL. After looking at the container I find it amusing that the package has a green Eco friendly insignia on it, then has a warning that it contains mercury and needs to be disposed of in a proper manner. I assume the LED's are adaptable to the dimmer switch?
__________________

__________________
Mulligan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:37 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.