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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 08:38 AM   #21
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

My gut reaction to all of the stuff I have read is:
1) global warming (due to man) is real, the absolute degree and impact is still unclear but the majority of scientific opinion points to bad news ahead;
2) Efforts to curtail GW will be ineffectual - we are approaching the point of no return with no consensus on the type of draconian change that would be needed to reverse GW;
3) We should be making huge efforts to determine how to live with GW - how to use new technologies to both reduce future GW increases and to minimize the negative impact of anticipated GW on life as we know it;
4) Separately, we should be doing much more to reduce our dependence on oil for national security reasons.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 09:20 AM   #22
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff
My gut reaction to all of the stuff I have read is:
1) global warming (due to man) is real, the absolute degree and impact is still unclear but the majority of scientific opinion points to bad news ahead;
2) Efforts to curtail GW will be ineffectual - we are approaching the point of no return with no consensus on the type of draconian change that would be needed to reverse GW;
3) We should be making huge efforts to determine how to live with GW - how to use new technologies to both reduce future GW increases and to minimize the negative impact of anticipated GW on life as we know it;
4) Separately, we should be doing much more to reduce our dependence on oil for national security reasons.
That is a reasonable assessment , IMO.

Now, here is a serious question - If your statement #2 is correct, and we so far down the line that changes now would be a drop in the bucket, then are we just fooling ourselves (and wasting money) with ideas like sequestered CO2 coal plants, wind farms, etc?

If so, we move to your #3, but that does not seem to be getting public attention.

Wind farms, etc could help to address #4, regardless of Global Warming.

-ERD50
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 10:08 AM   #23
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50

Now, here is a serious question - If your statement #2 is correct, and we so far down the line that changes now would be a drop in the bucket, then are we just fooling ourselves (and wasting money) with ideas like sequestered CO2 coal plants, wind farms, etc?

If so, we move to your #3, but that does not seem to be getting public attention.

Wind farms, etc could help to address #4, regardless of Global Warming.

-ERD50
Where I differ with most greens is in the need for draconian changes in our economy or lifestyle solely to reduce emissions in an attempt to avoid GW. I don't think we can realistically forestall GW drivers that are already well underway here and accelerating in the emerging markets. But I end up back on the side of the angels in terms of alternative sources because I believe we have hocked our security to a bunch of people who do not have our best interests in mind. I think we can better sell alternative fuel efforts to the American public if we base the effort on security with the welcome side benefit of environmental improvements. The later would be a welcome side benefit regardless your views on GW.

So, invest heavily finding ways to adapt but invest even more heavily in energy independence. Make ourselves safe so we can live to adapt to the mess we have created.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 10:58 AM   #24
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Another pov...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science....ap/index.html

"The report offers some hope if nations slow and then reduce their greenhouse gas emissions, but it notes that what's happening now isn't encouraging."

"The draft document says scientists are highly confident that many current problems -- change in species' habits and habitats, more acidified oceans, loss of wetlands, bleaching of coral reefs, and increases in allergy-inducing pollen -- can be blamed on global warming."
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 12:07 PM   #25
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I'm not sure what people mean when they say that efforts to curtail GW will be ineffectual. Do you mean that man won't be able to take action for political and social reasons? Or do you mean that action won't be effective.



The first problem is very real.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 12:17 PM   #26
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
First... let me say that global warming is occuring.. the question is how much is related to MAN...

If there was no global warming, Detroit would be next to a glacier.. a BIG one.. the Great Lakes were formed by glaciers.. they covered most of North America way back when... and they melted without any help for man...

The Earth has had many cycles of cold and warm... and it changes over many thousands of years.. man's contributions have only been about 100 or so... a very small timeframe to say we are causing some great catastrophy....

That being said... I do wish they would pass laws to prevent the amount of pollution we are putting in the air... the REAL problem is the health effects on the human race with all the crap... I can remember when I lived in London blowing my nose and having black soot all the time... the diesels spewed out so much you could not help but breath it in... so I don't much believe in the global warming as the models they use are crap (by their own admission).. but the dirty air can be SEEN...
Yes - the earth has cycles of cold/warm but the current change is spiking due to human activity, it's not occuring over time like the others have...and I totally agree w/ your second point - the back and forth is secondary to the fact that cancer rates are way up, kids are getting autism at astounding rates and americans are grossly overweight...we are junking up our earth and our health!

I once heard a native american say how she's not worried about the planet - the planet will be fine - it's the people who have to worry - for a while i didn't totally get what she meant - then the other day after I saw a discovery channel on the pre-dinosaur eras (w/ my daughter of course) i "got it" - the huge changes between toxic (for us) levels of co2 and eras of too much o2 (for us) have existed and the earth will adapt - it is just a question of whether we can adapt or survive it really...enter the thunderdome...
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 12:52 PM   #27
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Then again in the UN report everyone is so spun up about it says that C02 produced from animal husbandry generates more C02 than from all vehicles combined. ERGO as soon as everyone calling for wealth transfer ( a carbon tax or other fix by the US)becomes a vegan, I'll be willing to listen to there BS. Buying your way out with cardon credits does not count.

One more thing, anyone watching the receding polar caps on MARS?? Appears they are experiencing global warming also. I'm sure some will blame the eeeeeevil conservitives for that one too. Perhaps the source of all our energy (the sun) is running a little hotter these days and hence GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE. Humanity needs a crash program to develop and deploy a giant sunscreen in space.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 12:52 PM   #28
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
I'm not sure what people mean when they say that efforts to curtail GW will be ineffectual. Do you mean that man won't be able to take action for political and social reasons? Or do you mean that action won't be effective.



The first problem is very real.
A bit of both. The forecasts say that CO2 levels are so elevated that temps will continue to rise even if we had the stomach to do everything we could technologically achieve. The bottom line is that we have to heat our homes and drive our cars. Even if we got really serious fast, temperatures would continue to rise for 50+ years or some such number. In addition, there appears to be no real commitment among the nations to move aggressively to curtail emissions. The US is the worst culprit and we are diddling around. The developing world is not going to cut off their futures to help us continue our profligate ways. So the people problem is huge and not going away.

By the time we get climatic effects disastrous enough to scare us into action (e.g. continuing, relentless, bad hurricane seasons; coastal flooding, blah, blah) we will be too far along for any quick palliatives. It takes a long time to turn a global weather engine around so the problems will continue for decades while we struggle to deal with them. Thus my view that we should focus on using our technology and smarts to try to learn how to adjust to a volatile climate.

I am not far from the greens in many respects -- I think we should adopt many of the changes they call for. I just think we should change the back story a bit. Talk about preventing GW raises false hopes with the potential for a backlash. Talk of national security can move us in the same direction without a backlash due to GW. In the meantime, we need to soften people up about the fact that our grandkids may be facing a more volatile planet. I suspect houses in the Outer Banks may continue to be valuable for a while but I sure wouldn't buy one with 50 years in mind. And people in vulnerable areas should plan for the future with the expectation that GW is real and will continue. E.g. we would have to be nuts to rebuild the low-lying areas in New Orleans unless we commit to a massive redesign of the dikes with GW in mind.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 12:59 PM   #29
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by USK Coastie
Humanity needs a crash program to develop and deploy a giant sunscreen in space.
You were joking but that is exactly the sort of program that we will begin exploring if the dire predictions are accurate. I am a technology optimist. I believe we will be able to engineer our way out of our problems unless we blow ourselves up or kill ourselves off with bio-weapons first. But the adaptation could prove pretty rocky for some of us or our descendants.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 01:05 PM   #30
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
I notice that when you click on the link, the ad at the top of the page cycles between an ad for Shell Oil and Scottish Engergy.

The advertisers wouldn't affect the message, would they?
You shouldn't blame the oil companies for global warming ? After all they are only giving us what we vote for everyweek with our petrol purchases.

If you need someone to blame, blame the people with big cars/trucks/SUVs and people with big houses and poeple who just strive to have alot of stuff.

The consumerism lifestyle is what drives global warming, not the oil companies.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 01:13 PM   #31
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

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Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
I dont care how much is related to man.

I'd just like to do what we can to slow it down. If the answer is "nothing", then lets just all step out into traffic right now. Or get onto developing warp drive.

Cuz our grandchildren wont be able to live here.
What the hell is this. this is the perfect political spin, politicians will be able to control all activity because it is affecting "global warming". This will of course create a whole new bueacracy for monitoring and taxing. Are we going to ban volcanic eruptions as well?

I see posts like this and I see a whole class of people BEGGING to have their behavior MONITORED AND CONTROLLED by a paid political hack who will have the ability to skirt the laws "in the interest of the people".

Where I live they were concerned a few years back about landfills filling up and banned yard waste. One of our leading state sponsors lived nearby my house and was observed taking his grass clippings and dumping them in the field behind my house. When confronted his response was -- they will decompose in less than a year what are you worried about?
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 01:15 PM   #32
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by USK Coastie
One more thing, anyone watching the receding polar caps on MARS?? Appears they are experiencing global warming also. I'm sure some will blame the eeeeeevil conservitives for that one too. Perhaps the source of all our energy (the sun) is running a little hotter these days and hence GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE. Humanity needs a crash program to develop and deploy a giant sunscreen in space.
1) Climate change on Mars is irrelevant to climate change on Earth.

2) As far as I can find, the polar caps are melting on Mars because of spring, according to NASA.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2..._southpole.htm

"Like Earth, Mars has seasons that cause its polar caps to wax and wane. "It's late spring at the south pole of Mars," says planetary scientist Dave Smith of the Goddard Space Flight Center. "The polar cap is receding because the springtime sun is shining on it.""



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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 01:18 PM   #33
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

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Originally Posted by Masterblaster
You shouldn't blame the oil companies for global warming ? After all they are only giving us what we vote for everyweek with our petrol purchases.

If you need someone to blame, blame the people with big cars/trucks/SUVs and people with big houses and poeple who just strive to have alot of stuff.

The consumerism lifestyle is what drives global warming, not the oil companies.
Correct. We'll have to drastically change our western, consumerism, lifestyle and or develop new technologies.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 01:20 PM   #34
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by USK Coastie
Then again in the UN report everyone is so spun up about it says that C02 produced from animal husbandry generates more C02 than from all vehicles combined. ERGO as soon as everyone calling for wealth transfer ( a carbon tax or other fix by the US)becomes a vegan, I'll be willing to listen to there BS. Buying your way out with cardon credits does not count.

One more thing, anyone watching the receding polar caps on MARS?? Appears they are experiencing global warming also. I'm sure some will blame the eeeeeevil conservitives for that one too. Perhaps the source of all our energy (the sun) is running a little hotter these days and hence GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE. Humanity needs a crash program to develop and deploy a giant sunscreen in space.
How many years of data do we have on Martian Climate?
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 01:24 PM   #35
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

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How many years of data do we have on Martian Climate?
About 30, since the Viking landers.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 02:01 PM   #36
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I think the political will is lacking because GW won't cause drastic negative effects for people in 1st world countries. Waterworld is NOT going to happen! Where people will be most effected is places like Africa through famine when rainfall patterns change. A million dead in Africa doesn't do more than get Bono and the GAP to start a charity.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 02:39 PM   #37
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

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I think the political will is lacking because GW won't cause drastic negative effects for people in 1st world countries. Waterworld is NOT going to happen!
Probably. But if the Gulf Stream shut down, things could go south pretty fast. Of course, I live in DC so I am not betting on such a dour scenario. Now that the gun laws are overruled I can blow my head off in peace at home instead of moving to rural Montana.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 02:43 PM   #38
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by bright eyed
I once heard a native american say how she's not worried about the planet - the planet will be fine - it's the people who have to worry - for a while i didn't totally get what she meant - then the other day after I saw a discovery channel on the pre-dinosaur eras (w/ my daughter of course) i "got it" - the huge changes between toxic (for us) levels of co2 and eras of too much o2 (for us) have existed and the earth will adapt - it is just a question of whether we can adapt or survive it really...enter the thunderdome...
I have been saying that for a long time when people give me gloom and doom.. I just say the planet will 'get rid of us' if need be, but will cotinue to go on with whatever is living at the time..
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 02:51 PM   #39
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

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Originally Posted by USK Coastie
Humanity needs a crash program to develop and deploy a giant sunscreen in space.
You can take the 'winkies' away from that. The idea has been proposed, and as far out as it sounds, might be the simplest, most expedient 'solution'.

Send up a satellite that stays in orbit between the earth and the sun. This satellite unfurls a big light blocking screen. It would only need an apparent size large enough to block 2% or 3% of the sun's rays, and we get an offset to all the global warming. It would just look like a little black dot on the sun.

Donheff may be right - some technology solution like this may be the only hope.

-ERD50

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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-12-2007, 04:50 PM   #40
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterblaster
You shouldn't blame the oil companies for global warming ? After all they are only giving us what we vote for everyweek with our petrol purchases.

. . .
That may be true. It's just as true that you shouldn't blame tobacco companies for people smoking. Still, if they spend money and produce psuedo science to prevent society from improving, we can blame them for that.
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