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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 08:17 AM   #61
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
I read recently that there are trees startign to grow in areas that were tundra. The article was of course all gloom and doom. It seemed to me that was a good thing. More trees mean more carbon dioxide is converted and a slowing of the CO2 increase.
This locally is good news for the reasons you mentioned
However, when you take into account that the deserts are also growing...

The next report from the IPCC addresses this topic. By their research and estimates, the capacity of the globe to produce food will actually increase during the next 73 years. Around 2080 (if nothing changes regarding our CO2 production) this will reverse as arid areas continue to grow faster than the spread of farmable land.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 09:02 AM   #62
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

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Originally Posted by Zathras
re: "global cooling" - This was not suggested by any scientific paper or community, although it may have been by your poker friends. That doesn't disprove what we are currently seeing.
Zathras,

Actually it was. I am not a scientist but during the 70's I worked for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). After a particularly cold and harsh winter on the East coast some or our scientists were called to testify at congressional hearings into the possibility that a new ice age was imminent.

Grumpy
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 09:09 AM   #63
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

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Originally Posted by grumpy
Zathras,

Actually it was. I am not a scientist but during the 70's I worked for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). After a particularly cold and harsh winter on the East coast some or our scientists were called to testify at congressional hearings into the possibility that a new ice age was imminent.

Grumpy
And, if my knowledge of this is correct, the cooling was being caused by particulate matter and man-made emissions. The pollution controls put in place in the 60's and later reversed that trend.

If all that is accurate, then it indicates that man can and does affect global climate, and can take actions to reverse it.

The CO2 issue may be different. -ERD50
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 09:17 AM   #64
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

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Grasshopper, what is the sound of one moron posting ?
You're going to have to be way more specific than that.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 11:43 AM   #65
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Just realize that there are big $$$ to be made from government and private reasearch grants to "PROVE" that man is causing GW. Not a whole lot of $$ available for proving the oppisite. Remember man made GW is ONLY a theroy At this point it can not be conclusively proven that GW is linked to anything mankind is doing on the planet. Concensious is not proof. Remember that the scientific concensious in 1492 was that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

Anybody who buys the "We're all gonna die " mentality of this issue is not informed on it. The more research that one does, the more that man is the cause of GW looks like a power grab by the "we know what is best for you crowd."

No one has ever proved the theroy of electricity. They may design and build machines that work on the electrical theroy but no one can state with aboslute proof that electricity actually works the way it is theriozed to work.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 11:58 AM   #66
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

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Originally Posted by USK Coastie
Remember man made GW is ONLY a theroy
Gravity is also only a theory.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...032575,00.html

-------------------
The problem with The Great Global Warming Swindle, which caused a sensation when it was broadcast on Channel 4 last week, is that to make its case it relies not on future visionaries, but on people whose findings have already been proved wrong.
<snip>

The film's main contention is that the current increase in global temperatures is caused not by rising greenhouse gases, but by changes in the activity of the sun. It is built around the discovery in 1991 by the Danish atmospheric physicist Dr Eigil Friis-Christensen that recent temperature variations on Earth are in "strikingly good agreement" with the length of the cycle of sunspots.

Unfortunately, he found nothing of the kind. A paper published in the journal Eos in 2004 reveals that the "agreement" was the result of "incorrect handling of the physical data".
-----------------
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 01:08 PM   #67
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy
Zathras,

Actually it was. I am not a scientist but during the 70's I worked for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). After a particularly cold and harsh winter on the East coast some or our scientists were called to testify at congressional hearings into the possibility that a new ice age was imminent.

Grumpy
Grumpy, thanks for the input, great to hear from someone that was there.
So are you saying that you know people that went to congress to testify that a new ice age was imminent, or did they testify that that a cooling trend is currently being experienced but such was not an imminent indicator of an ice age?

Did they publish their research? I have looked, and searched and have found zero scientific papers that indicated an immediately impending ice age (sure, one will happen eventually, but not today).
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 03:16 PM   #68
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Check out the Wikipedia article on global cooling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling

There are some links in there to other technical articles and websites
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 04:00 PM   #69
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by USK Coastie
Remember that the scientific concensious in 1492 was that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

Actually, educated people at the time believed the earth was round, but it was still a popular myth among the undeducated masses.

I noticed among the shrill cries of global conspiracy of mad scientists to take over the world and the claims that humans can't effect the environment no one has mentioned the hole in the ozone. CFC's were damaging the ozone, and the hole was growing larger year by year. Once they were banned in most countries, the ozone layer has actually begun to recover.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 04:29 PM   #70
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Come on Laurence, there never was any hole in the ozone layer. Some goofballs just made it up to get on television, then they got CFC's banned, now they're claiming that the hole that wasnt ever there is getting smaller. Just so they can get on television again!
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 04:54 PM   #71
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
Actually, educated people at the time believed the earth was round, but it was still a popular myth among the undeducated masses.

I noticed among the shrill cries of global conspiracy of mad scientists to take over the world and the claims that humans can't effect the environment no one has mentioned the hole in the ozone. CFC's were damaging the ozone, and the hole was growing larger year by year. Once they were banned in most countries, the ozone layer has actually begun to recover.
Not according to the World meteoroligical Organization: We may need to ban something else:

3 October2006 World Meteorological Organization This year’s hole in the Antarctic ozone layer was the most serious on record exceeding that of 2000. Not only was it the largest in surface area (matching 2000) but also suffered the most mass deficit, meaning that there was less ozone over the Antarctic than ever previously measured.

Measurements were taken from instruments on both NASA and European Space Agency (ESA) satellites. These are validated by surface based observations of the WMO Global Atmosphere Watch (GAW) ozone network. Each agency uses different instruments hence the slightly different values.

NASA instruments showed that, on 25 September 2006, the area of the hole reached 29.5 million km2, compared to 29.4 million km2 reached in September 2000.


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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 05:11 PM   #72
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Laurence is correct. The ozone layer has begun to recover. Ozone destruction will continue until the CFCs are no longer in the atmosphere. The EPA states that the repair time will take 50 years.


Are there actually people out there that don't believe in CFCs affecting the ozone layer?

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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 05:30 PM   #73
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
Laurence is correct. The ozone layer has begun to recover. Ozone destruction will continue until the CFCs are no longer in the atmosphere. The EPA states that the repair time will take 50 years.


Are there actually people out there that don't believe in CFCs affecting the ozone layer?

Well it appears NASA is in disagreement with you on the ozone layer beginnning to recover per their measurements. Since CFC's have been banned what would be the explanation for that? I think in general a trend is seen and then any causal relationship that can be blamed on human interference is given causation, even if there is not enough evidence that it is the causation. Therefore my question, if CFC's have been banned and NASA and the World Meteorology Organization believe it is getting worse, why would that be?
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 05:42 PM   #74
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

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Originally Posted by Running_Man
Well it appears NASA is in disagreement with you on the ozone layer beginnning to recover per their measurements. Since CFC's have been banned what would be the explanation for that? I think in general a trend is seen and then any causal relationship that can be blamed on human interference is given causation, even if there is not enough evidence that it is the causation. Therefore my question, if CFC's have been banned and NASA and the World Meteorology Organization believe it is getting worse, why would that be?
Have 50 years passed already?

The WMA doesn't disagree with the banning of CFCs and their effect on the ozone layer.


Edit: Also, it's a phased ban. The US can produce HCFC until 2010.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 05:59 PM   #75
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

This is a pretty interesting article on the skeptics of the ozone hole discovery.

http://www.wunderground.com/educatio...e_skeptics.asp

----------------
With the advantage of hindsight, it is revealing to review the techniques the skeptics used to mislead and distort the truth in the debate on the CFC-ozone depletion issue.

*Launch a public relations campaign disputing the evidence.
DuPont, which made 1/4 of the world's CFCs, spent millions of dollars running full-page newspaper advertisements defending CFCs in 1975

*Find and pay a respected scientist to argue persuasively against the threat.
CFC industry companies hired the world's largest public relations firm, Hill & Knowlton, who organized a month-long U.S. speaking tour in 1975 for noted British scientist Richard Scorer,

* Use non-peer reviewed scientific publications or industry-funded scientists who don't publish original peer-reviewed scientific work to support your point of view.

* Trumpet discredited scientific studies and myths supporting your point of view as scientific fact.

* Point to the substantial scientific uncertainty, and the certainty of economic loss if immediate action is taken.

etc.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 06:11 PM   #76
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
This is a pretty interesting article on the skeptics of the ozone hole discovery.

http://www.wunderground.com/educatio...e_skeptics.asp

----------------
With the advantage of hindsight, it is revealing to review the techniques the skeptics used to mislead and distort the truth in the debate on the CFC-ozone depletion issue.

*Launch a public relations campaign disputing the evidence.
DuPont, which made 1/4 of the world's CFCs, spent millions of dollars running full-page newspaper advertisements defending CFCs in 1975

*Find and pay a respected scientist to argue persuasively against the threat.
CFC industry companies hired the world's largest public relations firm, Hill & Knowlton, who organized a month-long U.S. speaking tour in 1975 for noted British scientist Richard Scorer,

* Use non-peer reviewed scientific publications or industry-funded scientists who don't publish original peer-reviewed scientific work to support your point of view.

* Trumpet discredited scientific studies and myths supporting your point of view as scientific fact.

* Point to the substantial scientific uncertainty, and the certainty of economic loss if immediate action is taken.

etc.
This sounds like the Hillary Clinton approach to speaking about anything.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 06:16 PM   #77
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

?? How did Hillary get involved? On some boards people will do anything (include change the subject) to lob a shot at "the other side", let's not do that here!
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 07:59 PM   #78
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
Gravity is also only a theory.
-----------------
See earlier post re: popular vs scientific concept of Theory
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 08:32 PM   #79
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Running_Man
Not according to the World meteoroligical Organization: We may need to ban something else:

3 October2006 World Meteorological Organization This year’s hole in the Antarctic ozone layer was the most serious on record exceeding that of 2000. Not only was it the largest in surface area (matching 2000) but also suffered the most mass deficit, meaning that there was less ozone over the Antarctic than ever previously measured.

Measurements were taken from instruments on both NASA and European Space Agency (ESA) satellites. These are validated by surface based observations of the WMO Global Atmosphere Watch (GAW) ozone network. Each agency uses different instruments hence the slightly different values.

NASA instruments showed that, on 25 September 2006, the area of the hole reached 29.5 million km2, compared to 29.4 million km2 reached in September 2000.


Wonderful scientific approach. Lauch satellites capable of looking for different things. Find something different. Develop a theory about how man must be causing it and proclaim it will destroy the planet. This seems to be the approach for the "ozone hole."

How long has it been there? Nobody knows because we didn't have the technology to look for it before. Has it been like this before? Who knows since this is the first time we've seen it.

We now know that over the last few years it has changed in size. We don't know anything else unless you have an axe to grind.

All of the hurricane coverage a year ago was just as bad. We didn't know about half of the hurricanes until we got weather satellites up in the 70s and even then they have improved their coverage. Somehow, we have "the most hurricanes in history" and the world is coming to an end. I thing that maybe we had the most hurricanes in 20 or 30 years. That's not anywhere near as exciting.

BTW -- all the CFC plants that were shutdown were sold to India and China who started them up and built more. CFCs are only banned in Europe, Japan, Canada and the US (and possibly some other "industrialized" areas). Just like Kyoto, it doesn't apply to most of the rest of the planet.

All I'm seeing in all the global warming hype is questionable science, intimidation and scare tactics.
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle
Old 03-13-2007, 08:35 PM   #80
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Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

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Originally Posted by Masterblaster
This sounds like the Hillary Clinton approach to speaking about anything.
There we go. My favorite . . . It's Clinton's fault.

I think this has to rank at least as high as mention of Hitler when it comes to knowing a thread is complete.
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