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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 08:55 PM   #21
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Re: The Liberals' War

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
Il Duce will be out of office in a couple of years, so we can start putting things right again.
It's true that "Il Duce" will be out of office. *But whoever replaces him will be charged with the tough task of "putting things right." *The irony is that I haven't really heard anyone come up with any credible plan for dealing with the situation we're in currently. *Simply "bringing the boys home" is a convenient slogan but it leaves unanswered the question of what happens to Iraq as a failed state . . . and whether or not leaving it that way is really in our best interest. *
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 10:19 PM   #22
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Re: The Liberals' War

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Originally Posted by perinova

Enemies should be converted instead!!!!!!
Material wealth need to be shared. Poverty leads to extremism. Give all of them a TV to waste their energy in front of the boob tube. As we do in the Western world.
People should have lunch together to9 understand each other.
I agree to an extent. American culture and commercialism have been highly successful in other countries, and this includes the desire for material comfort, and yearning to improve the "on this earth" lives of family and friends. This will probably be a major part of the answer in reforming these societies as a whole, and that is the ultimate answer.

However, it would be a mistake to believe that the extemists who are actually doing the killings today launch their attacks because they are poor/deprived. Usama bin Laden is extremely wealthy. The 9/11 hijackers came from priveledged backgrounds. Many of the suicide bombers sent to kill Americans are not poor. There has been good analysis in the press of how these folks are recruited and where they come from, and they are generally not from the refugee camps and destitute families. They are driven by ideology. Many of them lived in the US and the west for extended periods, they understand us already. In Britain, most of the youths implicated in the London bombings were born in England. These people know our culture already, they hate it and they hate us. I'm afraid sitting down to lunch with them, holding hands and singing, seeking to feel their pain, is not going to make them change their minds. The hijackers on 9/11 shared snacks with their fellow passengers, saw the moms and babies on those airplanes, and it didn't seem to influence them very much.

It is not an "either/or" thing. We can take a hard line against the extemists while working with moderates and use Madison Ave to win the bigger struggle.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 10:24 PM   #23
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Re: The Liberals' War

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Originally Posted by donheff
Agreed!! But jumping back in from the liberal perspective, the current administration is setting this war -- the real war -- back a decade by diverting us from Bin Laden to Iraq which was anything but an Islamofacsist state before we inserted ourselves. Now, granted, it is rapidly becoming one. But that doesn't mean we should trust the idiots who brought us to this dance to take us home.
I don't disagree that the war in Iraq is not going as planned.. and is not helping in the short term against terrorists.. and since I do believe they think different than we do I now do not think they will embrace democracy as we do and will go back to some kind of dictatorship in the future...

The problem is we can not just 'cut and run'... as the saying goes, you broke it, you own it..

I think we do need to transfer some assets to Afghanistan to make sure it does not slide back to the Taliban.. that is now more a a threat than anywhere...
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 10:37 PM   #24
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Re: The Liberals' War

I will say it again... because some people seem to be reading something that I did not write... so read carefully...
Quote from other post:
I doubt that they (radical Islamists) are that concerned with any peace offerings from us... THEY DO NOT LIKE OUR SYSTEM... that is why they want to kill us..


READ.... radical islamists.. I put that in there for a reason... we can not change them... they will kill you if you go over there and try to 'convert' them... they do not need conversion in their mind... WE DO...

We need to treat our women like crap... kill them if they have sex out of marriage, kill someone if they decide to abandon Islam (it is a criminal offense)... kill someone if they desecrate the Quran.. which can be only that it touched the ground...

So again.. the radical islamists do not like our system and want to kill us... and if we do not want to recognize this fact it is at our peril...

What we need to do is get the non-radical Islamist to say over and over again that it is against Islam to do what they are doing... kind of like we do with the fringe Christian groups and other radical groups that we have here..
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 11:06 PM   #25
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Re: The Liberals' War

Quote:
I'd have more sympathy if they expressed the same outrage in defending their religion when Osama bin Laden and others say things like this...
Quote:
What we need to do is get the non-radical Islamist to say over and over again that it is against Islam to do what they are doing... kind of like we do with the fringe Christian groups and other radical groups that we have here..

Ask and it shall be delivered unto you:


"It is wrong to kill innocent people. It is also wrong to praise those who kill innocent people."
Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan. Cited in the New York Times, September 28, 2001.

Al-Azhar condemns suicide attacks
Grand Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of the Al-Azhar mosque of Cairo - which is seen as the highest authority in Sunni Islam - said groups which carried out suicide bombings were the enemies of Islam.* Speaking at the conference in the Malaysian capital, Kuala Lumpur, Sheikh Tantawi said extremist Islamic groups had appropriated Islam and its notion of jihad, or holy struggle, for their own ends.
BBC News, 11 July, 2003

Memo to Osama bin Laden:
"I would rather live in America under Ashcroft and Bush at their worst, than in any “Islamic state” established by ignorant, intolerant and murderous punks like you and Mullah Omar at their best."
A thought-provoking, controversial, pre-war article by Muqtedar Khan, Ph.D., February 12, 2003

Qaradawi Rejects Al-Qaeda’s Killing of Innocents
Prominent Muslim scholar Dr. Youssef Al-Qaradawi has condemned Al-Qaeda for their fuel tanker suicide bombing of a centuries-old Jewish synagogue on the Tunisian island of Djerba in April 2002.

"Who has the greatest duty to stop violence committed by Muslims against innocent non-Muslims in the name of Islam? The answer, obviously, is Muslims."
Ingrid Mattson, Vice President, Islamic Society of North America

"It is time that we Muslims acknowledge that the freedoms we enjoy in the US are more desirable to us than superficial solidarity with the Muslim World. If you disagree, then prove it by packing your bags and going to whichever Muslim country you identify with."
Dr. M. A. Muqtedar Khan

"Hijacking Planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts."
Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama, on September 15th, 2001

"The terrorists acts, from the perspective of Islamic law, constitute the crime of hirabah (waging war against society)."
September 27, 2001 - Fatwa, signed by:
Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Countil, Qatar
Judge Tariq al-Bishri, First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Egypt
Dr. Muhammad s. al-Awa, Professor of Islamic Law and Shari'a, Egypt
Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat, Islamic scholar, Syria
Fahmi Houaydi, Islamic scholar, Syria
Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Chairman, North America High Council


And to top it all off...


"I'm a Muslim. I've been a Muslim for 20 years. I want the world to know the truth about Islam.* I wouldn't be here to represent Islam if it were the way the terrorists make it look...Islam is for peace."
Former World Heavyweight boxing champion, Muhammad Ali, at the telethon benefit concert, September 21, 2001.

"Those terrorists must be reading a completely different Quran than the rest of us.* This isn't about Islam. It's about terrorism."
US Marine Corps Captain Aisha Bakkar-Poe.

"Terrorists claiming to act in the name of Islam is like a knife through my heart - that people would practice Islam, but do deeds like what they've done. It's not true faith. Some people twist religion to the way they think."
US Army Captain Arneshuia Balial, a convert to Islam since 1987.


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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 12:15 AM   #26
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Re: The Liberals' War

Yes.... some quotes here and there... but not enough...

And I do remember seeing a lot of 'normal' people on the street cheering the collapse of the WTC... it needs to get down to them... when the normal man on the street in Palistine or Syria or Iran will say that terrorists are evil and what they do is against thier God.. I will not hold my breath..

And I do not care about the quotes from the American Muslims... most all that are in this country do not have the extreme view that is in the Middle East... but then again, the militants want them killed also as they are not the right kind of Muslim..
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 02:05 AM   #27
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Re: The Liberals' War

Quote:
Yes....* *some quotes here and there... but not enough...
Have you defined what number, if any, WOULD be enough?* I can go surfing again if you give me a target... these aren't that hard to find!

Quote:
when the normal man on the street in Palistine or Syria or Iran will say that terrorists are evil and what they do is against thier God.. I will not hold my breath..
If you're not interested in American Muslim opinion, how do Egypt, Denmark, and Iraq work for you?


Muslims marched against terror in Egypt. Read this blogger's report (Glenn Reynolds of MSNBC):

Egyptian blogger Karim Elsahy tried to organize an anti-terror march in Cairo. And it worked -- though as another Egyptian blogger reports, it was broken up by Egyptian police:

We then started holding the banners in the view of the incoming and outgoing traffic. People's response was mostly the same: Astonished at first that something like this was happening, and then they showed their support by either honking or giving us the thumbs up. We were getting so many thumbs up I was loving it. The people were with us.

Just as I knew they would be. And then, of course, the Egyptian police showed up...

Anyway, the experience was worth it. And I have to admit that the policemen were themselves very supportive. They just followed the usual rule of Egypt's police force: do not allow anything to disrupt the peace no matter how good or bad it is.

Why, indeed? But this is a big step for Egypt. And for Egyptian bloggers. As Jeff Jarvis notes: "A year or so ago, I could not find any blogging scene there. Now, these people are making their voices heard."

There was a much larger demonstration at Sharm El Sheikh, scene of last week's horrific bombing. Egyptians stood side by side with tourists condemning terrorism and calling for peace.


It wasn't just in Egypt, either. There were also anti-terror rallies by Arabs and Muslims in Antelope Valley, California, in Iraq, and in Denmark.

What's depressing is how little attention these demonstrations got from the media.
If any of these groups had blown something up — or even just burned President Bush in effigy — they probably would have made the evening news. But when Arabs and Muslims defy news-media typecasting, they seem to be ignored.

UPDATE: The anti-terror protests may not be getting much press in Western media, but they're getting major treatment in Arab media. That's certainly a good thing, but I still wonder why CNN, Fox and — yes — even MSNBC haven't done more with this story. Maybe they need to be reading more blogs!



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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 02:13 AM   #28
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Re: The Liberals' War

...It appears that Osama has quite a few friends here on these forums. You all need to get a clue. No matter how much you like Osama he hates you for your liberal ideals just as much as he hates Texas Proud and I for our strong opinions. If he gets the chance he will kill us. There is nothing we could have done before or after 9/11 short of converting our entire country to an Islamic fundamentalist state that would have made Osama like us. Thankfully the war on terror, especially in Afghanistan has somewhat blunted his abilty to attack us at this time.
...On the subject of turning Iraq into a democracy? We killed far too many Iraqis during Desert Storm (I was there BTW) and since our 2003 invasion for the Iraqis to ever embrace a US sponsored democratic form of government. No matter what we do the place will be a mess ten years from now. It is time for the President to declare victory over Iraqi based terrorists and bring a bunch of the troops home and redeploy some others of them into Afghanistan and other places to continue the hunt for Osama and others who want to kill you and I. Of course there will be arguements, and understandably so about whether such a victory claim would have much validity but at least it would allow for some degree of face saving and perhaps make it palatable to the President.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 07:03 AM   #29
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Re: The Liberals' War

There may be a number of moderate Muslims that that denounce the terrorists. Find all the quotes you like. But the fact is the Muslim world is not doing anything about their radical members. Leaving that problem to us.

When a group of people are dedicated to destroying us there can only be one response to them. Remove the threat that they represent. If a state harbors terrorists that are threatening us and does nothing about it we are well within our rights to go in and take care of it ourselves. In fact we are obligated to do so. Any country that does not defend its self will not last.

I want the United States to last. It’s the best hope the world has for maintaining Peace.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 07:19 AM   #30
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Re: The Liberals' War

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Originally Posted by Lazarus
When a group of people are dedicated to destroying us there can only be one response to them.
Would that "response" be to invade a country that had nothing to do with trying to destroy us and no longer posed any real threat to anyone outside their own borders? Well then, mission accomplished.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 07:46 AM   #31
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Re: The Liberals' War

They posed a threat to Kuwait which is outside their borders. Thanks to us it remains outside their borders
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 08:19 AM   #32
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Re: The Liberals' War

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Would that "response" be to invade a country that had nothing to do with trying to destroy us and no longer posed any real threat to anyone outside their own borders? Well then, mission accomplished.
That counrty continued to be a threat to th American and British airmen enforcing no-fly zones agreed to by that country in it's surrender. That threat was a direct violation of the surrender agreement, essentially being an act of war. They started the fight, couldn't finish it and are now laughing because the lib's have taken it up.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 08:22 AM   #33
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Re: The Liberals' War

It is interesting to find myself agreeing with Texas, JClarksnakes, Lazarus et al on the threat Islamofacsists pose. The radical elements really do want to destroy the west. Europe faces the most immediate threat, far beyond what we face. Read, While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within by Bruce Bawer to get a feel for what is happenning in the suburbs of Paris and Amsterdam.

But as I posted above, the Bush Admin has set us back a decade. We have stretched our armed forces to the limit and gotten nothing in return. Agreed that the Democrats are scratching their heads about what we should do in Iraq. I have to admit that I don't have a clue. What I do know is that I would never trust Bush or his supporters to do anything right -- they have proven they are incapable of learning. We need a whole new mindset to deal with this threat.

I got stuck in traffic at 14th and Pennsylvania Avenue the other morning as Bush's motorcade passed by on the way to the Hill. A Presidential visit to the Hill other than the State of the Union Address is a rare thing indeed, reserved for matters of the utmost importance. What was Bush heading up there for? To demand the right to torture prisoners and hide them from the Red Cross. He shames us all.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 08:41 AM   #34
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Re: The Liberals' War

From Wikipedia (because it was easy..

"Mohammed Bouyeri assassinated van Gogh in the early morning of Tuesday November 2, 2004, in Amsterdam in front of the Amsterdam East borough office (stadsdeelkantoor) on the corner of the Linnaeusstraat and Tweede Oosterparkstraat streets. He shot him with eight bullets from a HS2000 (a handgun produced in 2000 in Croatia), and Van Gogh died on the spot. Bouyeri slit van Gogh's throat and then stabbed him in the chest. Two knives were left implanted in his torso, one pinning a five-page note to his body. The note (Text) threatened Western governments, Jews and Hirsi Ali (who went into hiding). The note also contains references to the ideologies of the Egyptian organization Takfir wal-Hijra."

I remember seeing a 60 minute segment on this.. they asked one leading cleric about the murder.. he said van Gogh had insulted Islam.. then he was asked.. but he insulted Jews, Christians, politicians etc.. response, so we have to take it?

I saw many many vidioes of the 'ordinary man' dancing on the street after the WTC...

How much rioting occured in many countries and how many deaths because of some cartoons


Again from Wikipedia
"Deaths

* At least four protestors were killed in Afghanistan, in Mihtarlam and an US air base in Bagram. One boy was trampled to death in Bossaso, Somalia when the crowd stampeded as police fired in the air to disperse them. On February 5, 2006 one protestor died at the blazing Danish Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon [38]
* On February 6, 2006 one demonstrator involved in the torching of the Danish consulate in Beirut, Lebanon was found dead on a staircase. One protestor was shot to death in Laghman Province Afghanistan. [39]
* Four people were killed and 22 injured on February 7, 2006 in an attack on a NATO base in Maymana, Afghanistan. [40]
* Andrea Santoro, a Catholic priest, was killed on Sunday, February 5, 2006 in Trabzon, Turkey. A 16 year-old high school student was arrested two days later carrying a 9mm pistol. The student told police he had been influenced by the cartoons. [41]
* On February 13, 2006 two people were killed in Lahore, Pakistan. The next day two were killed in Peshawar, Pakistan; and another in Lahore. [11]
* On February 17, 2006 11 people died during protests in Libya [42]
* On February 18, 2006, sixteen people were killed in northern Nigeria as demonstrators protested the cartoons by storming and burning Christian churches and businesses. [43]"

These demonstrations I am sure had many many more people than the demonstrations you present.. It is easier for me to find articles and quotes that show thier hate for us..

And as someone else said.. the people that are doing the murdering are not the poor and uneducated.. they have degrees.. they live in the Western world.. it is just that the 'common man' on the street has the same opinion...
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 09:00 AM   #35
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Re: The Liberals' War

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...It appears that Osama has quite a few friends here on these forums. You all need to get a clue.
His biggest friend is the Bush administration, which stopped hunting for him and declared him unimportant. Now if they did that to throw him off his guard, that's one thing. But Bush doesn;t believe in nuance, so I don't buy that reason (for now).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jclarksnakes
No matter how much you like Osama
Oh, good grief! : I loathe Osama Been Forgotten and want him captured!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jclarksnakes
he hates you for your liberal ideals just as much as he hates Texas Proud and I for our strong opinions.
OR perhaps we have rational ideas and you have incorrect opinions? Anyhoo, I bet he doesn't see a desert rat's patoot of difference between our opinions. We're all The Infidel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jclarksnakes
If he gets the chance he will kill us.
Well, d'uh! Why didn't we go after him instead of Saddam Hussein then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jclarksnakes
On the subject of turning Iraq into a democracy? We killed far too many Iraqis during Desert Storm (I was there BTW) and since our 2003 invasion for the Iraqis to ever embrace a US sponsored democratic form of government. No matter what we do the place will be a mess ten years from now. It is time for the President to declare victory over Iraqi based terrorists and bring a bunch of the troops home and redeploy some others of them into Afghanistan and other places to continue the hunt for Osama and others who want to kill you and I.
Hee. This is what Democrats have been saying--thanks for joining the fight. With both sides on the same side, we're sure to win.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 09:23 AM   #36
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Re: The Liberals' War

Some of this would be amusing, if it wasn't so serious.

Ironic that liberals rightly bemoan conservatives that cannot let go of their historical disgust with the Clintons ... as the liberals cannot let go of their disgust with Bush over Iraq. Give it a rest, and look at the bigger picture and question.

It's a dangerous mental "blanket" to believe we can sing Kum Ba Yah with these folks around the campfire.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 09:24 AM   #37
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Re: The Liberals' War

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Originally Posted by Lazarus
They posed a threat to Kuwait which is outside their borders. Thanks to us it remains outside their borders
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 09:25 AM   #38
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Re: The Liberals' War

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Originally Posted by Charles
Some of this would be amusing, if it wasn't so serious.

Ironic that liberals rightly bemoan conservatives that cannot let go of their historical disgust with the Clintons ... as the liberals cannot let go of their disgust with Bush over Iraq. Give it a rest, and look at the bigger picture and question.

It's a dangerous mental "blanket" to believe we can sing Kum Ba Yah with these folks around the campfire.
Except of course Clinton left office 6+ years ago and is nothing but a footnote in US history...Bush is still occupying Iraq last time I checked.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 09:29 AM   #39
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Re: The Liberals' War

And, your perspective is that Clinton's policy (and earlier) had nothing to do with where we are on terrorism now? :
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Old 09-16-2006, 09:41 AM   #40
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Re: The Liberals' War

Charles, that would not be rational. Every president since about WWII has had something to do with where we are currently at with regards to terrorism (maybe earlier).

The issue is, Clinton is not currently running the show, Bush is.
The past can't be changed, if enough people work on it, the present and near future can.

Frankly I have no idea WHAT we can do in Iraq now. Stay the course seems to strengthen our enemies. Perhaps if the public demanded that we focus more on capturing OBL that will help??
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