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The Liberals' War
Old 09-14-2006, 08:46 PM   #1
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The Liberals' War

Recently some of us got into a brief debate on the forum here regarding pacifism in the face of terrorism, and it resonated at this five year anniversary of 9/11/01.* Then, this opinion appears in the WSJ, and it articulates the situation so well.* Our existing, and likely increasing war against terror and radical Islam is not necessarily synonomous with the war in Iraq ...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1158...N=wsjie/6month

GLOBAL VIEW
By BRET STEPHENS

The Liberals' War
September 12, 2006; Page A21


"When I was 19, I moved to New York City. . . . If you had asked me to describe myself then, I would have told you I was a musician, an artist and, on a somewhat political level, a woman, a lesbian and a Jew. Being an American wouldn't have made my list. On Sept. 11, all that changed. I realized that I had been taking the freedoms I have here for granted. Now I have an American flag on my backpack, I cheer at the fighter jets as they pass overhead and I am calling myself a patriot."

-- Rachel Newman, "My Turn" in Newsweek, Oct. 21, 2001

Here's a puzzle: Why is it so frequently the case that the people who have the most at stake in the battle against Islamic extremism and the most to lose when Islamism gains -- namely, liberals -- are typically the most reluctant to fight it?

It is often said, particularly in the "progressive" precincts of the democratic left, that by aiming at the Pentagon, the World Trade Center and perhaps the Capitol, Mohammed Atta and his cohorts were registering a broader Muslim objection to what those buildings supposedly represented: capitalism and globalization, U.S. military power, support for Israel, oppression of the Palestinians and so on.

But maybe Ms. Newman intuited that Atta's real targets weren't the symbols of American mightiness, but of what that mightiness protected: people like her, bohemian, sexually unorthodox, a minority within a minority. Maybe she understood that those F-16s overhead -- likely manned by pilots who went to church on Sunday and voted the straight GOP ticket -- were being flown above all for her defense, at the outer cultural perimeter of everything that America's political order permits.

This may be reading too much into Ms. Newman's essay. Yet after 9/11 at least a few old-time voices on the left -- Christopher Hitchens, Bruce Bawer, Paul Berman and Ron Rosenbaum, among others -- understood that what Islamism most threatened wasn't just America generally, but precisely the values that modern liberalism had done so much to promote and protect for the past 40 years: civil rights, gay rights, feminism, privacy rights, reproductive choice, sexual freedom, the right to worship as one chooses, the right not to worship at all. And so they bid an unsentimental good-bye to their one-time comrades and institutions: the peace movement, the pages of the Nation and the New York Review of Books, "the deluded and pathetic sophistry of postmodernists of the left, who believe their unreadable, jargon-clotted theory somehow helps liberate the wretched of the earth," as Mr. Rosenbaum wrote in the New York Observer in 2002.

Five years on, however, Messrs. Hitchens, Bawer et al. seem less like trendsetters and more like oddball dissenters from a left-liberal orthodoxy that finds less and less to like about the very idea of a war on Islamic extremism, never mind the war in Iraq. In the September issue of the Atlantic Monthly, James Fallows, formerly Jimmy Carter's speechwriter, argues that the smart thing for the U.S. to do is declare victory and give the conflict a rest: "A state of war with no clear end point," he writes, "makes it more likely for a country to overreact in ways that hurt itself." Further to the left, a panoply of "peace" groups is all but in league with Islamists. Consider, for instance, QUIT! -- Queers Undermining Israeli Terrorism -- a group that, in its hatred for Israel, curiously fails to notice that Tel Aviv is the only city in the Middle East that annually hosts a gay-pride parade.

An instinct for pacifism surely goes some way toward explaining the left's curious unwillingness to sign up for a war to defend its core values. A suspicion of black-and-white moral distinctions of the kind President Bush is fond of making about terrorism -- a suspicion that easily slides into moral relativism -- is another.

But there are deeper factors at work. One is appeasement: "Many Europeans feel that a confrontation with Islamism will give the Islamists more opportunities to recruit -- that confronting evil is counterproductive," says Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali-born, former Dutch parliamentarian whose outspoken opposition to Islamism (and to Islam itself) forced her repeatedly into hiding and now into exile in the United States. "They think that by appeasing them -- allowing them their own ghettoes, their own Muslim schools -- they will win their friendship."

A second factor, she says, is the superficial confluence between the bugaboos of the Chomskyite left and modern-day Islamism. "Many social democrats have this stereotype that the corporate world, the U.S. and Israel are the real evil. And [since] Islamists are also against Israel and America, [social democrats] sense an alliance with them."

But the really "lethal mistake," she says, "is the confusion of Islam, which is a body of ideas, with ethnicity." Liberals especially are reluctant to criticize the content of Islam because they fear that it is tantamount to criticizing Muslims as a group, and is therefore almost a species of racism. Yet Muslims, she says, "are responsible for their ideas. If it is written in the Koran that you must kill apostates, kill the unbelievers, kill gays, then it is legitimate and urgent to say, 'if that is what your God tells you, you have to modify it.'"

A similar rethink may be in order among liberals and progressives. For whatever else distinguishes Islamism from liberalism, both are remarkably self-absorbed affairs, obsessed with maintaining the purity of their own values no matter what the cost. In the former case, the result too often is terror. In the latter, the ultimate risk is suicide, as the endless indulgence of "the other" obstructs the deeper need to preserve itself. Liberal beliefs -- and the Rachel Newmans of the world -- deserve to be protected and fought for. A liberalism that abandons its own defense to others does not, something liberals everywhere might usefully dwell on during this season of sad remembrance.


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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-14-2006, 09:12 PM   #2
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Re: The Liberals' War

All fundies are creeps.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 04:34 AM   #3
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Re: The Liberals' War

Evidently some ERs don't have enough to do. Or maybe they've worn out their captive audience with the SO, kids, any friends/co-workers they might have, and all the people at the local donut shop. Is there no end to this crap filling the forum?
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 05:12 AM   #4
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Re: The Liberals' War

Interesting, I haden't thought about what would happen to liberals if Islam would win. They do have the most to lose.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 06:00 AM   #5
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Re: The Liberals' War

another 'Uniter' heard from...

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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 06:48 AM   #6
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Re: The Liberals' War

Why is it that voices from the right (most definately including the WSJ Op ED) feel compelled to comment on what they think is going on in the left, but really have no clue about? Its like a 9 year-old trying to lecture an adult about sexual positions after reading about sex in the encyclopedia.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 07:53 AM   #7
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Re: The Liberals' War

Charles -- you buy the Rove line too easily. You mistake opposition to the war in Iraq as opposition to the war on terrorism. But you have it exactly backwards. Most liberals are horrified that the Bush admin is going backwards on the war on terror giving radical Islamists a huge leg up.

If Bush had followed Tenant's original plan and pursued the real terrorists in Afganistan and potentially on into Northern Africa and other terror strongholds, he would have kept the support of the world and might have actually made progress against the ongoing jihad. Instead, he bought the Wolfowitz/Perl et al plan to change the face of the mideast by invading Iraq. The problem was Iraq was not a nexus of international terrorism it was just a brutal dictatorship. And it didn't present any real threat to us because there were no WMDs. And worse, Wolfowitz was an arogant fool who misread the situation horribly.

Now we have created an increasingly radical Islamic state in Iraq and it is a magnet and breeding ground for the very forces we oppose. Worse still, we abandon our core values and embrace torture and police state tactics that don't provide any real intelligence and alienate the entire world.

Your team has set U.S. interests back by a decade. It could have moved us ahead by more.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 08:27 AM   #8
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Re: The Liberals' War

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Why is it that voices from the right (most definately including the WSJ Op ED) feel compelled to comment on what they think is going on in the left, but really have no clue about?*
Or about Islam.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 01:05 PM   #9
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Re: The Liberals' War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
But the really "lethal mistake," she says, "is the confusion of Islam, which is a body of ideas, with ethnicity." Liberals especially are reluctant to criticize the content of Islam because they fear that it is tantamount to criticizing Muslims as a group, and is therefore almost a species of racism. Yet Muslims, she says, "are responsible for their ideas. If it is written in the Koran that you must kill apostates, kill the unbelievers, kill gays, then it is legitimate and urgent to say, 'if that is what your God tells you, you have to modify it.'"
There is in any religious book a mix of lessons of tolerance and some bits of intolerance. Both the Coran and the Bible are guilty of that (I admit a limited knowledge of those books).
What is troublesome to me is thatwhen recently a religious figure (the Pope) spoke for tolerance and against islamist terrorism, all the Muslim organizations in the world cried fool. People should try to do a better job listening to the actual content of what is said (in this case the Pope, who only spoke for tolerance and against terrorism in any religion). Or is it that most Muslims identify with the terrorists?

(Same comment about what the President or Iran speeches and interviews)
Listening carefully is not a bad idea to make ones mind. I noticed it is very difficult to get an in depth understanding of any important issue by listening to CNN, FOX, MSNBC. The news are definitely biased toward sensationalism and not presented in a javascript:surroundText('http://', '', document.postmodify.message);way that leads to an understanding of the truth.

OK sorry about this rant....
Now, against terrorism, WAR was(is) not necessarily the right answer or the only answer. I mean what would Gandhi do? ?
We also can't expect the UN to support the war either:
Article 1 of founding document: The UN was founded in order to
Quote:
deliver mankind from the scourge of war
.

Just did a search on this and found this
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0511/p09s01-coop.html
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 05:58 PM   #10
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Re: The Liberals' War

some good points there, Perinova. Especially the part about there being a mix of tolerance and intolerance in most religions texts.

Still... if you closely read what the Pope said, it included this:

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"

I don't have a dog in this fight, being neither Catholic (any more) nor Muslim, but I've gotta tell you, that looks a little... er... less than politic to me.

He may have mispoken, others may be overreacting -- both are common problems these days.

But when you've got the same amount of money as God himself (and believe me, the Vatican is LOADED), then the world has to assume that you can afford a stable of speechwriters / editors / reviewers, etc. It follows that what you DID say is probably exactly what you MEANT to say.



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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 06:09 PM   #11
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Re: The Liberals' War

Quote:
Originally Posted by perinova


OK sorry about this rant....
Now, against terrorism, WAR was(is) not necessarily the right answer or the only answer. I mean what would Gandhi do? ?
This is just me having a go... but, I bet there are many Gandhi wanna be's that were killed by the poeple they were trying to change with their peace offerings...

I doubt that they (radical Islamists) are that concerned with any peace offerings from us... THEY DO NOT LIKE OUR SYSTEM... that is why they want to kill us..
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 07:07 PM   #12
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Re: The Liberals' War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
I doubt that they (radical Islamists) are that concerned with any peace offerings from us... THEY DO NOT LIKE OUR SYSTEM... that is why they want to kill us..
Exactly. Islam needs a reformation of the same type the other monotheistic religions have had. When these religions got out of the "government business" and decided to stick to spiritual matters, both government and religion improved. Radical Islamists believe they have a holy obligation to assure their government is run according to the tenets of Islam and that sharia law is imposed. For these people, it is improper to tolerate anything but an Islamic government. That leaves very little room for discussion with others in that society who may be Christians, Jews, athiests, etc.
Of course, not all Moslems see things this way, many are content to live in a secular society. But, the percentage of Moslems who believe a secular government is an abomination is considerably higher than for other faiths.

"THEY DO NOT LIKE OUR SYSTEM - - that is why they want to kill us."
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 08:13 PM   #13
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Re: The Liberals' War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
I doubt that they (radical Islamists) are that concerned with any peace offerings from us... THEY DO NOT LIKE OUR SYSTEM... that is why they want to kill us..
Agreed!! But jumping back in from the liberal perspective, the current administration is setting this war -- the real war -- back a decade by diverting us from Bin Laden to Iraq which was anything but an Islamofacsist state before we inserted ourselves. Now, granted, it is rapidly becoming one. But that doesn't mean we should trust the idiots who brought us to this dance to take us home.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 08:21 PM   #14
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Re: The Liberals' War

Is "Islamism" (by which you mean Salafism?) going to take over the United States? That seems pretty unlikely -- I'd worry more about asteroid impacts, which we at least know can occur. The most plausible worst-case scenario is we lose access to Middle East oil. How does that impact liberals more than anyone else here?
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 08:21 PM   #15
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Re: The Liberals' War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline
Still... if you closely read what the Pope said, it included this:

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"

I don't have a dog in this fight, being neither Catholic (any more) nor Muslim, but I've gotta tell you, that looks a little... er... less than politic to me.
I'd have more sympathy if they expressed the same outrage in defending their religion when Osama bin Laden and others say things like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osama bin Laden 1998
[t]he ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 08:22 PM   #16
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Re: The Liberals' War

Quote:
GLOBAL VIEW
By BRET STEPHENS

The Liberals' War
September 12, 2006; Page A21
The article above from the WSJ feels like a Dark Ages article inspired from the extreme right Christian conservative branch.

Whoever thinks that "kill them all - all of them that hate us" attitude would ever succeed I think is quite An all out war against some kind of cultural enemy is doomed from the start as it would create even more enemies.

Enemies should be converted instead!!!!!!
Material wealth need to be shared. Poverty leads to extremism. Give all of them a TV to waste their energy in front of the boob tube. As we do in the Western world.
People should have lunch together to9 understand each other.

After 911 the world was all behind the US. Including many muslims. The war in Irak turned it all around. now we have the consequences of 911, no-allies, more muslim discontents, a quagmire in Irak. Thank-you George.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 08:34 PM   #17
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Re: The Liberals' War

Quote:
Originally Posted by perinova
Enemies should be converted instead!!!!!!
Material wealth need to be shared. Poverty leads to extremism. Give all of them a TV to waste their energy in front of the boob tube. As we do in the Western world.
People should have lunch together to9 understand each other.
It is so refreshing to find someone who expresses the core of what I feel about all this nonsense!* Perinova, are you a Virgo, too?*

My first concrete thoght about the implications of 9/11 (took about a week) was that it was really sad that we woudl be going to war against *someone* since the actions precipitating a phenominally stoopid invasion could only have been motivated (you choice of) insanity, poverty, jealousy, or hatred.* None of those has ever been resolved via war.

As a good Catholic (well, for a Merkin), I have to shut my pie hole, but let me just say that on this occasion, I wish the Pope had done so as well.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 08:39 PM   #18
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Re: The Liberals' War

donheff, not at all ... listen carefully, and you'll now hear plenty of liberals (on this thread as well ...) expounding on the virtues of pacifism in the face of terrorism. Plenty.

And, by the way, there are alternative political approaches besides so-called "liberals", and "right-wing" conservatives. There is also libertarianism, among others, and may libertarians take issue with both the Bush and Clinton policies.

Lastly, it is interesting on this forum how anything other than a liberal slant is attacked as slow-witted, obnoxious, out of step, etc. "Liberal"? I think not. Lock step pacifism is looking more like it.

And, if you don't think this will affect your retirement, I beg to differ.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 08:43 PM   #19
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Re: The Liberals' War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
donheff, not at all ... listen carefully, and you'll now hear plenty of liberals (on this thread as well ...) expounding on the virtues of pacifism in the face of terrorism.* Plenty.

And, by the way, there are alternative political approaches besides so-called "liberals", and "right-wing" conservatives.* There is also libertarianism, among others, and may libertarians take issue with both the Bush and Clinton policies.

Lastly, it is interesting on this forum how anything other than a liberal slant is attacked as slow-witted, obnoxious, out of step, etc.* "Liberal"?* I think not.* Lock step pacifism is looking more like it.

And, if you don't think this will affect your retirement, I beg to differ.
Hmmm, not to be too pugilistic (despite rediscovering bourbon tonight), but Charles, you planning on shipping out to Iraq any time soon? You young enough to plausibly be drafted?

I doubt it. Don't be too quick to shove Laurence and I in front of the IEDs just so you can feel all patriotic and stuff. Il Duce will be out of office in a couple of years, so we can start putting things right again.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-15-2006, 08:53 PM   #20
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Re: The Liberals' War

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
Islam needs a reformation of the same type the other monotheistic religions have had. When these religions got out of the "government business" and decided to stick to spiritual matters, both government and religion improved.
Please tell this to Mr Bush and the so-called Christian right--they don't agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
"THEY DO NOT LIKE OUR SYSTEM - - that is why they want to kill us."
Not exactly. They don't like the way we meddle in the affairs of their countries or use them as pawns in our world-domination schemes, they don't like our support for Israel, they don't like our arrogance. They don't care that our culture degrades us, actually. They just don't want it to degrade them.

EDIT They have a very hierarchical, male-dominated, religion-dominated society. When their religious leaders tell them that the US is causing their problems and what they can do about it, some of them act on it.

BTW, most liberals of my acquaintence (that would be most of my friends and family) aren't pacifists. Most of us supported the war in Afghanistan, and especially the too-short-lived effort to bring Bin Laden to justice.
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