The Lincoln Movie

[kyounge1956]

somebody mentioned this in the Dust Bowl thread. Have you seen it yet? Are you going to? I'm planning to go with my Mom, maybe over this weekend, or maybe when my niece comes out here the beginning of next month.

[ERD50]

I've heard very positive reviews, and the previews look very dramatic.

But is it historically accurate (I have not heard one way or the other)? If not, I'll pass. IMO, if you are going to do history w/o being historically accurate, you should create a fictional setting.

I learned recently that the Emancipation Proclamation was really a hollow statement. The Northern states were forbidden from keeping slaves (they didn't have slaves), the Southern states were forbidden from keeping slaves (but they were at war with the North, they didn't care about any 'proclamation' the North made). And those in-between states that weren't succeeded, but had slaves - well, they were conveniently exempt. Toothless.

-ERD50

[donheff]

I saw it last week. Excellent. It is based on Doris Kearns Goodwin's biography so it is probably pretty accurate. I had no idea this 13th amendment was such a close call. It was more likely to fail than pass and it took some tough negotiating, bribing, and even deceiving to ram it through. This is a film to see.

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donheff I saw it last week. Excellent. It is based on Doris Kearns Goodwin's biography so it is probably pretty accurate. I had no idea this 13th amendment was such a close call. It was more likely to fail than pass and it took some tough negotiating, bribing, and even deceiving to ram it through. This is a film to see.

I plan to see it soon, the reviews have been stellar. I am reading Team of Rivals right now, knowing Doris Kearns Goodwin's reputation, I am sure every possible effort was made to make it historically accurate. I've seen interviews with her where she has said the image most Americans have of Lincoln don't do him justice. You may ask yourself about the timing of this movie, it's very timely...coincidence maybe?

[freebird5825]

I'm not usually a theatre goer. I just saw Skyfall 007 at a noontime matinee and realized I did miss the big screen experience. There were less than 20 people in the theatre and nobody was tinkering with a cell phone.
I have a new friend who loves to go to movies, so I can tag along with him while Mr B studies.
Lincoln is next on the list to see.

[easysurfer]

Thanks to Honest Abe, we have Thanksgiving

[kyounge1956]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 (snip) I learned recently that the Emancipation Proclamation was really a hollow statement. The Northern states were forbidden from keeping slaves (they didn't have slaves), the Southern states were forbidden from keeping slaves (but they were at war with the North, they didn't care about any 'proclamation' the North made). And those in-between states that weren't succeeded, but had slaves - well, they were conveniently exempt. Toothless. -ERD50

Is this movie about the Emancipation Proclamation, or the 13th Amendment? Nothing hollow about the latter.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyounge1956 Is this movie about the Emancipation Proclamation, or the 13th Amendment? Nothing hollow about the latter.

I don't know, I haven't seen the movie yet. I don't know if it encompasses the EP or not.

I guess I'm just wondering - was Lincoln as committed to abolishing slavery as the previews make it seem, strictly because he hated slavery? Or was that a means to an end (preserve the Union)? I guess that is the historical accuracy that I'm wondering about, and I'm not enough of a historian to know.

IIRC, the Lincoln-Douglass debates were about not expanding slavery into the new territories.

Ahhh, but I found this, so maybe it was in his heart:

Lincoln

Quote:

As Lincoln said, This declared indifference, but, as I must think, covert real zeal for the spread of slavery, I cannot but hate. I hate it because of the monstrous injustice of slavery itself. I hate it because it deprives our republican example of its just influence in the world—enables the enemies of free institutions, with plausibility, to taunt us as hypocrites—causes the real friends of freedom to doubt our sincerity, and especially because it forces so many really good men amongst ourselves into an open war with the very fundamental principles of civil liberty—criticizing the Declaration of Independence, and insisting that there is no right principle of action but self-interest.[20]

-ERD50

[Finder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyounge1956 Is this movie about the Emancipation Proclamation, or the 13th Amendment? Nothing hollow about the latter.

Good movie. Main thread is the efforts on bringing forward the 13th amendment, a close call as said above. Most appealing to those interested in history, politics and good acting.

[obgyn65]

This movie is already on my Netflix list. Since I don't know much about US history, I would like to learn more about historical figures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyounge1956 somebody mentioned this in the Dust Bowl thread. Have you seen it yet? Are you going to? I'm planning to go with my Mom, maybe over this weekend, or maybe when my niece comes out here the beginning of next month.

[mn54]

Excellent movie. Daniel Day-Lewis is terrific as Lincoln, as is Tommy Lee Jones as Thaddeus Stevens. Movie centers on how Lincoln was able to pass the 13th amendment and end the civil war.

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mn54 Excellent movie. Daniel Day-Lewis is terrific as Lincoln, as is Tommy Lee Jones as Thaddeus Stevens. Movie centers on how Lincoln was able to pass the 13th amendment and end the civil war.

I haven't seen it yet, but how about Sally Field? I've read that Mary Todd Lincoln may not be what most people who haven't studied the Lincoln's might expect.

[Koogie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebird5825 I'm not usually a theatre goer. I just saw Skyfall 007 at a noontime matinee and realized I did miss the big screen experience. There were less than 20 people in the theatre and nobody was tinkering with a cell phone. I have a new friend who loves to go to movies, so I can tag along with him while Mr B studies. Lincoln is next on the list to see.

Saw Skyfall as well... was disappointed (I guess it was overhyped). Better than the atrocious last Bond film but not as good as Casino Royale. The only thing that was worth it in my opinion was the reliably good acting of all the principals.

Looking forward to seeing Lincoln. Also Life of Pi and The Hobbit.

[jflynn4]

Have seen both.


Skyfall was OK but a disappointment.....not the best Bond movie.

Lincoln, on the other hand, was outstanding and, based on my understanding of history, very accurate. Lincoln is seen by met as almost a demigod. The real Lincoln was an expert politician who was not above lying (or avoiding the truth) if it supported what he wanted to accomplish. This movie accurately portrays that.

[martyb]

I thought Skyfall was "ok"...not spectacular. I wasn't real impressed with "Flight". Haven't seen Lincoln yet, but most likely will within the next day or so.

Oh yeah, wife "made" me go see the latest Twilight movie yesterday. It was ok I suppose...lol.

[Khufu]

I suppose it is too much to expect American history to overcome the deification of Lincoln even at this late date. I certainly wouldn't expect Spielberg to be the one to do so, but I'll read reviews of this movie with interest.

My own opinion of Lincoln is that he was a cynical politician consumed with ambition to be President. Consider these facts:

1. Although it was the leading moral issue of the day Lincoln is oublicly silent on the subject of slavery until quite late (1850? from memory.) His behavior was certainly consistent with his famous statement of indifference to slavery compared to preserving the Union. Why historians should have given him a pass on the moral question on this basis is a mystery to me.

2. Lincoln opposed slavery, but did so exclusively on the economic grounds that the slave was robbed of the products of his lifetime of work. Although he had occasion to observe slaves working under harsh conditions during visits to the South those experiences never seem to have aroused actual sympathy in him for the human suffering of blacks.

3. Like other men whose whole lives were devoted to political ambition (Ed Koch, Hitler), Lincoln never had a friend during his adult life. What kind of person has no friends?

4. As a lawyer Lincoln represented a slave owner named Matson who sued in court to recover his property, a fugitive slave woman named Bryant and her children. The court did not agree.

Lest we give too much deference to prevailing opinion of the day, consider the opposite case of John Quincy Adams who dedicated himself to working against slavery after finishing his term as president.

5. When Gen. John C. Fremont issued his own proclamation as military governor of Missouri freeing the slaves in that state, Lincoln promptly re-enslaved them.

6. There should be no confusion about the cause of the Civil War, which was not to end slavery. Indeed, the notion that huge numbers of white men would could be induced to volunteer to fight for the rights of black people at any point in US history is ludicrous on the face of it. The Civil War was fought over whether the industrial North or the agrarian South would control the federal government. Determining whether new states would enter the Union as slave or free was crucial to that question and the reason that the issue did not reach the point of warfare earlier in the 19th century.

Lincoln took pains to avoid the misunderstanding that the War was to be for the benefit of black people by refusing to meet publicly with Frederick Douglass or other abolitionists.

After the long war, however, in the public mind the moral achievement of abolishing slavery was probably the only effect that could justify the massive loss of life. So, American historiography settled on slavery as the cause.

7. Lincoln deliberately provoked the War by refusing to evacuate Fort Sumter, which the military had advised him was indefensible. Lincoln thereby initiated the American tradition of starting wars in a democratic country by getting yourself attacked first, which was the method of choice in the Spanish-American War (battleship Maine), WWI (Lusitania), WWII (Pearl Harbor), and Viet Nam (Tonkin Bay incident.)

8. Lincoln's theory that by joining the Union states forswore the right to secede is without basis in the Constitution or its legislative history. Lincoln based his belief on a mystical idea that the Union somehow preceded both the Constitution and the Declaration. Mystical ideas in politics are usually a cover for economic interests. As a lawyer Lincoln worked for the megacorporations of the day, the railroads, whose economic interests would best be served by an intact and expanding Union. Indeed, the building of the first transcontinental railroad was a Lincoln project.

9. George Templeton Strong, a prominent NY lawyer of the day who met with Lincoln while working on the Sanitation Committee, remarked in his diary that he would have found Lincoln more acceptable if only he didn't tell so many dirty jokes.

10. Lincoln's murder at the end of a successful war, occurring as it did on Good Friday in a Christian country, cemented his memory as a martyr to a great moral cause. A dubious claim, as I have pointed out.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyb Oh yeah, wife "made" me go see the latest Twilight movie yesterday. It was ok I suppose...lol.

Comedians everywhere are going to be sorry to see "Breaking Wind Dawn" drop off the public radar...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khufu 3. Like other men whose whole lives were devoted to political ambition (Ed Koch, Hitler), Lincoln never had a friend during his adult life. What kind of person has no friends?

That just has to invoke some cataclysmic implementation of Godwin's Law.

[Khufu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords Comedians everywhere are going to be sorry to see "Breaking Wind Dawn" drop off the public radar... That just has to invoke some cataclysmic implementation of Godwin's Law.

You think it was a low blow to drag out Ed Koch yet again in an attempt to discredit Lincoln?

[Nemo2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khufu There should be no confusion about the cause of the Civil War, which was not to end slavery. Indeed, the notion that huge numbers of white men would could be induced to volunteer to fight for the rights of black people at any point in US history is ludicrous on the face of it. The Civil War was fought over whether the industrial North or the agrarian South would control the federal government. Determining whether new states would enter the Union as slave or free was crucial to that question and the reason that the issue did not reach the point of warfare earlier in the 19th century.

I haven't seen the movie, but this is a point I argued on another thread, here in Canada, a couple years ago.........a lone voice against the warm-fuzzy 'true believers' who needed a clear cut struggle between 'Good & Evil'.

[Bestwifeever]

"I suppose it is too much to expect American history to overcome the deification of Lincoln even at this late date. I certainly wouldn't expect Spielberg to be the one to do so, but I'll read reviews of this movie with interest.

My own opinion of Lincoln is that he was a cynical politician consumed with ambition to be President. Consider these facts:...."
....


Obvuously not everyone romanticizes Lincoln or you wouldn't have found these facts somewhere. Maybe they are also part of the film.